Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 67857 times)

Precious Roy

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2634

  • Offline
Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2012, 11:23:29 PM »
I really wanted to try several different buckshot loads this deer season but after checking the deer hunting regs they specifically prohibit the use of buckshot for deer hunting in my state for some reason.  You can poke one with an arrow or an atlatl or even an air rifle but buckshot is verboten.  Go figger.

Dang. 

I really wanted to try some different loads and sizes to get some real world feedback on their performance.

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21852
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #76 on: September 18, 2012, 10:55:59 AM »
    This is why we hunt in different states... different regs.

    No Buckshot for Bucks.  Huh.  That's kinda lame.  But most of the time these rules come out because someone did something really stupid.  I wonder what that situation was. 
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #77 on: September 18, 2012, 07:00:38 PM »
    Banning buckshot is nothing new:

    1905 - Buckshot banned for deer hunting in Pennsylvania.  :hmm

    Then in 2001 allowed buckshot in some areas of Pennsylvania:   :o

    "To more effectively manage the wildlife resources of this Commonwealth, the Commission... at its January 23, 2001, meeting finally adopted changes to § 141.1 to make it unlawful to hunt with firearms in Philadelphia County, except buckshot with authorization of the Director; to make it lawful to use buckshot, including semiautomatics, to take deer in the remaining counties in the southeast special regulations area; to make it unlawful to hunt with buckshot in Allegheny County without specific authorization of the Director..."
     
      I suspect limited danger range had something to do with the partial reinstatement
    « Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:13:09 PM by RMc »
    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #78 on: September 18, 2012, 07:20:47 PM »
     On the other hand...

     On Corps of Engineers land near Ft. Worth, TX

     "c. Buckshot (any shot size large than #2 shot) is prohibited anywhere on government
    property. Buckshot is prohibited due to increased public safety concerns. Shotguns with rifled
    slugs are allowed when hunting deer and feral hogs except at those lakes which restrict deer and
    feral hog hunting to archery only."    :banghead
    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #79 on: September 18, 2012, 08:59:23 PM »
    This is why we hunt in different states... different regs.

    No Buckshot for Bucks.  Huh.  That's kinda lame.  But most of the time these rules come out because someone did something really stupid.  I wonder what that situation was. 


     George,

     I think that most of the laws against buckshot use for deer have their origins the extremely limited range of pre-1963 buckshot ammo.  Prior to Winchester's introduction of the Mark IV buckshot load in 1963, it was not unusual to see mention in the shooting press of 5 foot buckshot patterns at 50 yards.  As you know the Mark IV load technology introduced shotgunners to powdered polyethylene buffer and plastic pellet wrappers.

    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #80 on: September 19, 2012, 12:31:29 AM »
    Whoops!  Correction: Winchester's Mark V Buckshot loads introduced buffer and plastic shot wrappers to the world of Buckshot Ammo.     :shrug
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:50:15 AM by RMc »
    Alabama

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21852
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #81 on: September 19, 2012, 12:59:27 AM »
    Whoops!  Correction: Winchester's Mark V Buckshot loads introduced buffer and plastic shot wrappers to the world of Buckshot Ammo.     :shrug
    That's interesting as Remington likes to make it sound like they invented the Shotgun altogether...
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #82 on: September 24, 2012, 11:38:50 PM »
    Speaking of low recoil: 

    Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil blue hull 8 pellet 00B is rated at 1100 fps out of a 30" test barrel.  However, Hornady's LE site shows this load at 991 fps out of an 18.5" barrel.

    http://www.hornadyle.com/products/shotgun/tap-reduced-recoil/tap-reduced-recoil

    These have the VersaTite, (same as Flite-Control), wad. If the pellets weigh in at 48 to 50 grains each that would be just a 7/8 to 15/16 ounce payload moving out at less than 1000 fps. 

    :hmm
    Alabama

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21852
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #83 on: October 03, 2012, 08:08:06 PM »
    Probably just fine for the purpose of these munitions... Close Range, CQB work.  Inside the same room distances where LEO's want to reduce the Risk to Innocents.   
    This is not a load for open terrain.  Or men with beards.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6329
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #84 on: October 03, 2012, 08:44:18 PM »
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #85 on: October 15, 2012, 02:37:25 PM »
    On the other hand...

     On Corps of Engineers land near Ft. Worth, TX

     "c. Buckshot (any shot size large than #2 shot) is prohibited anywhere on government
    property. Buckshot is prohibited due to increased public safety concerns. Shotguns with rifled
    slugs are allowed when hunting deer and feral hogs except at those lakes which restrict deer and
    feral hog hunting to archery only."    :banghead

    And in furtherance of this state of confusion...

    On Corps of Engineers land near New Orleans, LA:

    Deer: Archery and Shotgun (Buckshot) Only

    http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/recreation/2012-2013%20BCS%20Hunting%20Season%20Dates.pdf

    Looks like the Corps of Engineers can't figure this out!    :coffee
    Alabama

    huey148

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2789
      • Huey's Gunsight

    • Offline
    Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #86 on: October 15, 2012, 09:00:04 PM »
    Eh....no buckshot hunting in Ohio either...or center fire either for that matter....slugs only and each gun season 130k+ taken still
    Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

    "I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #87 on: October 23, 2012, 11:58:08 PM »
    Interesting that she was using a 20 and still dropped the deer like he'd been poleaxed.  New ammo is definitely a step up from the old paper hulled stuff of my youth.

    One of the interesting aspects of buckshot on light big game is the "poleaxed" effect that seems to happen when around 50% or more of the pellets strike the vitals.  Here is another video, this time in Virginia, where a doe and a buck are taken from the same blind in just a few minutes.  A Remington Express was used with 3" Remington 00B.  It is hard to judge the distance, but both deer dropped in their tracks.  The hunter obviously waited until the deer were within range.  See this at 2:00 and 4:27 in the video:


    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #88 on: October 24, 2012, 06:15:44 PM »
    "One of the interesting aspects of buckshot on light big game is the "poleaxed" effect that seems to happen when around 50% or more of the pellets strike the vitals." - That is with conventional small pellet buckshot ammo holding 12 or more total pellets in the load.



    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #89 on: October 24, 2012, 06:36:19 PM »
    This vid shows one of the few times I've ever seen this... A White Tail that gets DROPPED right then and there.  Dead on the Hoof.  Most of the time, a Deer with run away... Not very far, but it still runs.  I've been lucky enough to drop them a couple times, mostly mine have staggered away. 

     George,
     I agree with your assessment above as well as previously noting how many people even pattern their buckshot load/choke/gun combination. However, as a general observation, I have seen and been privy to many reports from hunters, about the greater numbers of deer seemingly "poleaxed" or "train-wrecked" on the spot when hit with a compact "swarm" of buckshot.
    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #90 on: October 26, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »
    Here is another example of a deer "dropped in his tracks" with buckshot.  The entire pattern impact can be seen at the 2.48 and 6.60 marks.  This New Jersey hunt shows hunting over bait which is legal in that state.



    Have the videos in this thread changed your perception of buckshot as a hunting tool? 

    Alabama

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7125
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #91 on: October 27, 2012, 10:21:00 AM »
    I never doubted it.  Within its range limitations there is little doubt that that a good shot will produce a DRT result. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21852
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #92 on: October 27, 2012, 12:44:43 PM »
    Kinda makes me laugh when people doubt the shotguns effectiveness and opt for an AR foe the home defense role.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #93 on: October 28, 2012, 11:06:19 AM »
    One additional video, this one from North Carolina.  From the information available, this buck was taken at some 25 yards with 3" Federal Flite-Control 00B from a full choke Beretta. The wad was recovered next to the deer. This one went down with all four hooves in the air. 
    The shot takes place just after frame 3.54:

    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #94 on: October 28, 2012, 11:11:44 AM »
    So what do you gentlemen think are the reasons that hunting shows and magazines virtually never cover the use of buckshot as a legal method of take? 

    I appreciate your contribution to the discussion.
    Alabama

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21852
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #95 on: October 28, 2012, 12:27:39 PM »
    That's a good question.  It probably comes down to money.  Rifle makers are paying big dollars to sponsor hunters with shows.  TC freaking owns Jim Shockey.
    More guys think Rifle when it comes to Deer.  The phrase is common... "Deer Rifle".  You don't hear Deer Shotgun.
    But as shown, Shotguns can deliver solid ethical kill shots, within their ranges.
    Hunting in Virginia, I could have easily used a shotgun for all of it.


    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #96 on: October 29, 2012, 12:57:56 PM »
    Could there be some "political correctness" lurking in the shadows with the money/sponsorship connection?  For example, in the 2012 Federal ammunition catalog the only buckshot uses acknowledged are personal defense and predator hunting.  Considering the stellar performance of Federal's game changing Flite-Control buckshot, not even acknowledging a substantial market segment for the product seems quite odd.     :hmm


    Also, the last video  shows the hunter recovering a Flite Control Wad next to the deer at frame 8.42 .
    « Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 01:21:50 PM by RMc »
    Alabama

    JesseL

    • Gun Mangler
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 12450

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #97 on: October 29, 2012, 01:38:35 PM »
    What's politically incorrect about shooting deer with buckshot? Especially as opposed to shooting people (in self defense)?
    Arizona

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #98 on: October 30, 2012, 11:52:23 AM »
    While I remember seeing billboards in the early 1980's, along Alabama Interstate Highways, touting Federal's then new Premium Buckshot with "copper plating and spiral stacking for improved patterns" for deer hunting, marketing to that hunter segment appears to have faded.

    Perhaps the marketing departments are fearful of:

    -Regional association with dog hunting for deer. Dog hunting for deer is slowly declining in the South due to changing patterns of land ownership and remains a controversial topic in other regions.

    -Continued sporting press reference to Buckshot as an ineffective tool for deer hunting (based on the collective memory of pre-1963 ammunition performance).

    -Continued shooting press focus on buckshot as only suitable for defensive use at very short range.

    -Hunter distain based on lack of direct experience and decades of game laws prohibiting buckshot in many areas. (Many hunting forums degenerate into name calling when buckshot is mentioned in conjunction with deer hunting).

    -Historical association in the Northeastern states with market hunting, (with dogs), and the practice of indiscriminate shooting into groups of deer. 

    -Mixed positions on the issue of buckshot and hunter safety from agencies like the Corps of Engineers and other public land management areas  - as previously mentioned in this thread.

    As a result the market focus is directed toward buckshot for defensive use, 3 gun competition and predator hunting.

    The use of buckshot for coyote hunting (particularly in the Eastern U.S.) does not carry negative historical baggage so that market segment is openly catered to and covered by the shooting/hunting  media.

    Remember, most states prohibited archery and handgun hunting into the 1960's due to concerns over inordinate wounding, inadequate range and negative public perception. We don't see that today.
    « Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 12:05:31 PM by RMc »
    Alabama

    RMc

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1617

    • Offline
    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #99 on: October 30, 2012, 08:16:05 PM »
    Also, the last video  shows the hunter recovering a Flite Control Wad next to the deer at frame 8.42   6.42
    Alabama

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.