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Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 68863 times)

GeorgeHill

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Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #250 on: July 05, 2015, 11:13:24 AM »
 :scrutiny
I've had such amazing results with IC, I would think going to Modified wouldn't do anything for it.
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    Grant

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #251 on: July 22, 2015, 09:50:38 PM »
      Just thought I'd update and beat my old drum from my soapbox....

    Took my new SXS out and patterned it (very unscientific)....

    Again...If you want a good tight budget buckshot, get the Nobelsport 12 pellet 00 buck load.   I've tried three different batch lots, all seem to do as similarly well:

     From both cylinder barrels, 24 pellets total (only tried 2 per brand since I was in a hurry), at 30 yards, on a 24" circle had 20 pellet impacts......Pretty good for un-buffered buckshot and cylinder bores.

    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #252 on: July 23, 2015, 12:04:39 AM »
     :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #253 on: December 13, 2015, 12:41:33 PM »
    Interesting over the counter combination recommended by Winchester for hog hunting "Down Under."

    SSG / #2B / .27"  (UK / US / Nominal)



    https://www.winchesteraustralia.com.au/products/RWB12PSSG
    « Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:55:32 PM by RMc »
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #254 on: December 14, 2015, 08:48:41 AM »
    British system... always mucking things up.
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #255 on: April 30, 2016, 12:00:09 AM »
    Hornady Varmint Express #4B vs Mule Deer doe.  Note range, penetration and recovered pellet shapes in this case:

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #256 on: April 30, 2016, 12:19:43 AM »
    He seemed awfully close to a building at the shot.  Hard to say what the actual range to it was but if it was occupied I would not be discharging a gun anywhere near that close. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #257 on: April 30, 2016, 12:42:12 AM »
    Hornady Varmint Express #4B vs Mule Deer doe.  Note range, penetration and recovered pellet shapes in this case:



    Damn, dude. He's like Mr. Rogers, except with a shotgun  :cool. A very professional and cheerful intro to that hunt. I kind of wish more hunters on YouTube took this approach (other then the potential safety violation of discharging a firearm next to a building of course).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #258 on: April 30, 2016, 01:07:29 AM »
    I am liking #4 Buck more and more.  It is good medicine for coyotes!
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #259 on: April 30, 2016, 09:21:54 AM »
    He was right in noting that he was lucky one of the pellets clipped the spine.  Even at this close distance #4B and the Hornady version of the FliteControl wad cup seems marginal for deer. Penetration seemed to be no more than mid carcass - perhaps 6-8". It's labled for varmint and should be reserved for that role, where it should excel.  I'll take 00B or no smaller than #1.

    Great video production and narration.  I hope that house was his and unoccupied.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #260 on: April 30, 2016, 11:59:38 AM »
    Damn, dude. He's like Mr. Rogers, except with a shotgun  :cool. A very professional and cheerful intro to that hunt. I kind of wish more hunters on YouTube took this approach (other then the potential safety violation of discharging a firearm next to a building of course).
    Fred Fluffing Rogers, indeed.  His professionalism I liked, his chipper demeanor, not so much.  It would not be so bad if he came across as more serious.

    And killing things makes you 'sad?'  Either stop doing it or don't tell anyone that it does.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #261 on: April 30, 2016, 12:13:43 PM »
    Fred Fluffing Rogers, indeed.  His professionalism I liked, his chipper demeanor, not so much.  It would not be so bad if he came across as more serious.



    And killing things makes you 'sad?'  Either stop doing it or don't tell anyone that it does.

    You're a cold, cold bastage Kaso  :neener.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #262 on: April 30, 2016, 12:47:03 PM »

    Exactly.

    You're a cold, cold bastage Kaso  :neener.
    There is a difference between not taking joy from something, and it bringing sadness.  A big difference.
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #263 on: April 30, 2016, 08:56:17 PM »
    Hornady Varmint Express #4B vs Mule Deer doe.  Note range, penetration and recovered pellet shapes in this case:
    ----------------------------
    Several observations:

    -Brobee 223 set a maximum range of 25 yards based on his concerns about under penetration with #4B.  The range he fired was within the self-imposed range limit.

    -From the recovered pellets, it appears the alloy used by Hornady in this load is quite soft.  This is a problem with most commercial buckshot loads.

    -The primary function of buffer is to lessen pellet deformation during in barrel acceleration.  Hornady does not use buffer in any buckshot load.

    http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-VX-4-Buckshot/

    For what its worth:

    Comparing the FPE of a pellet from this 1350 MV load of #4B with the FPE of a 00B round at the same MV has the 00B pellet developing twice the FPE at 50 yards as the #4B pellet at 25 yards.

    Here is the Round Ball Ballistics Calculator used:

    http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html
    « Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 09:14:15 PM by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #264 on: August 03, 2016, 01:43:30 AM »
    Remington's new HOG HAMMER 12 gauge Buckshot load is advertised as having "...extra hard, high antimony copper plated 000 Buckshot."

    The question raised then must be: Just what is the antimony level of the pellets in this new load?

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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #265 on: August 03, 2016, 07:44:43 AM »
    Hornady Varmint Express #4B vs Mule Deer doe.  Note range, penetration and recovered pellet shapes in this case:
    ----------------------------
    Several observations:

    * * *

    -From the recovered pellets, it appears the alloy used by Hornady in this load is quite soft.  This is a problem with most commercial buckshot loads.

    -The primary function of buffer is to lessen pellet deformation during in barrel acceleration.  Hornady does not use buffer in any buckshot


    Very interesting observation.  Federal does use buffering in its FliteControl buckshot loads.  When I compared patterning between FC Federal 00B with its Hornady counterpart I noted that the FC wad/cup was a bit longer and traveled about 10 yards farther down range.  That would keep the pellets together longer.

    I concluded the wad/cup differences might account for the slightly tighter groups I was consistently seeing.  Add a pellet deformity issue to the Hornady load due to absence of buffering, and the more open pattern makes even more sense.

    Don't get me wrong.  My sample size was small, the Hornady load was still better than anything else, but the difference, while slight, was consistent, shot-to-shot.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #266 on: August 03, 2016, 01:19:39 PM »
    I would like the Hornady load a lot more if it was buffered.  I think it would help.  I have a lot of it... used a lot of it... and it's good.  Very good.  But it's not as good as it could be.  The Federal... is.  It's more consistent.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #267 on: August 05, 2016, 01:38:56 AM »
    Remington's new HOG HAMMER 12 gauge Buckshot load is advertised as having "...extra hard, high antimony copper plated 000 Buckshot."

    The question raised then must be: Just what is the antimony level of the pellets in this new load?


    Haven't seen it listed anywhere but the industry standard for "high antimony" shot usually runs in the 4% to 5% range with some going as high as 6% .   
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #268 on: August 05, 2016, 04:53:41 PM »
    coelacanth,

    A bit of research turned up the following:

    Shot containing up to 0.5% antimony is generally called “soft shot”. Shot containing
    more than 0.5% antimony is known as “hard shot”.
    Source:
    http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299_2-Shotshell-Approved8-31-2015.pdf

    This "hardness" standard is the same for buckshot pellets.

    Regarding Remington lead factory loads:

    STS/Nitro27 target loads  6% antimony
    American Clay & Field target loads  4% antimony
    Gun Club and Field loads  2% antimony
    Source:
    http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/new-remington-american-clays-and-field-target-loads.264836/

    In the Remington LE Buckshot line this was the story:

    "...our 9-pellet Express® LE Buckshot loading created a new standard of pattern performance with the addition of our one-piece compression section Power Piston® wad column, polymer buffering and hardened 3% antimony pellets. The combination of these advanced features produce patterns 25% tighter than standard buckshot"

    http://www.remingtonle.com/ammo/ss_expbk.htm

    Promoting a 3% antimony content for Remington LE buckshot then implies the standard consumer grade Express buckshot contains pellets of a lesser antimony content.

    As for the "...extra hard, high antimony..." content of buckshot pellets in the Hog Hammer line, Remington has not yet replied to my query.
    « Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 05:30:20 PM by RMc »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #269 on: August 05, 2016, 11:28:51 PM »
    Yeah, the whole subject gets a little esoteric - especially when you throw in the proprietary wads and buffers and the like.  In the final analysis though, antimony adds cost to each pellet so they don't use any more of it than they feel is absolutely necessary to either the performance of the shot or the hype in the ad copy. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #270 on: August 11, 2016, 01:46:08 AM »
    Esoteric, yes indeed, as is most of what is discussed in this forum!   Yet much of what is esoteric in shotgunning is due to shotshell marketing that keeps most consumers in the dark.   
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #271 on: August 11, 2016, 01:48:27 AM »
    Very true.   :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Roper1911

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #272 on: August 13, 2016, 11:10:39 AM »
    Yeah, the whole subject gets a little esoteric - especially when you throw in the proprietary wads and buffers and the like.  In the final analysis though, antimony adds cost to each pellet so they don't use any more of it than they feel is absolutely necessary to either the performance of the shot or the hype in the ad copy. 

    I kinda want to get my hands on some linotype to cast into buckshot now... especially considering I have access to hexavalent chrome through my workplace now.
    super hard, chrome plated buckshot? I wonder how that would perform...
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #273 on: August 13, 2016, 12:27:09 PM »
     :hmm  You'd need a pretty good shot cup arrangement to keep it away from the barrel steel. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #274 on: August 16, 2016, 11:01:02 PM »
    Linotype lead alloy has a 12% antimony content and runs 22 BHN.  That is harder than most commercial "hard cast" bullets. "Hardball" alloy has a 6% antimony content for approx 16 BHN. 

    http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm



    I kinda want to get my hands on some linotype to cast into buckshot...
    Alabama

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