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Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 68857 times)

GeorgeHill

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Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #225 on: February 01, 2015, 07:01:57 PM »
Funny. Did someone mention funny?

Shades of the 1890s, Spartan buckshot ammo lists Smokeless Powder among its many features!

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-890
And "spherical shot"!!!!
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #226 on: February 01, 2015, 07:31:13 PM »
    High Brass and Low Brass are just marketing tradition these days.  However, in the era of hulls with paper basewads there was indeed another reason that had more to do with the internal basewad height.

    The basic story behind the brass went something like this:

    Heavy loads required more internal room in the hull that was provided by a low internal basewad. Paper basewads were not perfectly gas-tight and a low basewad needed the reinforcement of a high brass head to maintain hull integrity.  Lighter loads that did not need the internal room used cheaper to make, high paper base wads and low brass case heads.  Thus high-brass shells had a low base wad and were used for heavy loads.  Low brass cases had a high internal base wad and were used with lighter loads.

    Into the 1960's it was not uncommon to refer to low base hulls and high base hulls - meaning high brass and low brass respectively.  Got it?   :eh

    Today high brass is simply traditional marketing for heavy loads.  However, many low-recoil buckshot loads are put up in high brass cases.  :shrug

    Shotshell handloaders can, of course, shake-up non-handloader assumptions with visually disparate creations like this:



    « Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:14:04 PM by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #227 on: February 02, 2015, 01:14:21 PM »
    it's low brass....
    why is it low brass?

    Good question !

    I suppose shotgunning is the most traditional of the modern shooting sports.  This is why Federal still loads Paper case trap loads.  Surprisingly, tradition still has influence on the tactical side of the market.

    When Winchester first introduced the Ranger line of low recoil 00B rounds the shells had white cases and low brass - they apparently didn't sell well; even to the LE market.  So, without any fanfare, Winchester simply substituted red tube, high brass cases with no other changes.  With this visual change, LE sales began to range upward with the new "powerful looking" reduced velocity buckshot ammo!

                                                               

                                                                     :coffee
    « Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:31:58 PM by RMc »
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #228 on: February 03, 2015, 08:46:59 AM »
    Much of our industry is all about Packaging.
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #229 on: February 03, 2015, 09:47:08 AM »
    Much of our industry is all about Packaging.

    And marketing hype.  But back on theme, Fed. Premium Flite Control was a true beakthrough, that Federal has been modest in packaging and hype.  Maybe they don't have to the way the stuff flie (pun intended) right off the shelf into shoppi carts.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #230 on: February 25, 2015, 03:49:35 PM »
    Indeed it is about packaging!

    The latest repackaging effort appears to be attaching the Magnum label to standard velocity 9 pellet 00B in the Winchester Ranger line - along with a fancy new box. 

    Propellant is cheaper than lead - so now if it isn't "Low Recoil" or "Tactical" then it has to be "Magnum!" 

    http://www.sgammo.com/sites/default/files/002_15.JPG



    Much of our industry is all about Packaging.
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #231 on: February 25, 2015, 07:04:06 PM »
    I don't think they are understanding what Magnum means.
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    Grant

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #232 on: February 26, 2015, 12:10:13 AM »
    bu....bu...but....but....it's HIGH BRASS.
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #233 on: February 26, 2015, 08:39:20 AM »
    I don't think they are understanding what Magnum means.

    Oh, but they do. And, sadly, they don't care.

    Perhaps I take the term too seriously, but there should be standards.  I think the term should rightly be reserved for loads too long to fit in standard chambers, or unsafe to fire in them due to distinctly higher pressures.  But, I guess that ship has long set sail with 2-3/4" Magnum shells long, long ago.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #234 on: February 26, 2015, 08:52:49 AM »
    bu....bu...but....but....it's HIGH BRASS.
    That should be expected of buckshot.  In my search for a good load for a coach gun, any shell that is 'low brass' is automatically disqualified.



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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #235 on: February 26, 2015, 08:27:26 PM »
    Oh, but they do. And, sadly, they don't care.

    Perhaps I take the term too seriously, but there should be standards.  I think the term should rightly be reserved for loads too long to fit in standard chambers, or unsafe to fire in them due to distinctly higher pressures.  But, I guess that ship has long set sail with 2-3/4" Magnum shells long, long ago.

    For a long time Magnum in the shotshell world has simply meant larger shot charges - not increased velocity. 
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    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #236 on: February 28, 2015, 09:43:51 PM »
    Yeah, a Magnum 00 load was 15 pellets instead of 9 pellets.

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #237 on: February 28, 2015, 10:25:27 PM »
    Here is the spec. sheet for the Ranger LE 00B "Magnum."  Check out the test barrel length, metal head construction and  pattern information.


    http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCatalogAmmo%2FAttachments%2F817%2FRA1200HD.pdf
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #238 on: March 25, 2015, 09:35:09 PM »
    Given the long running histrionics of the anti-lead movement, the next logical step in accomodation is apparently the buckshot market.

    Federal's latest buckshot load ventures into this Non-Toxic shot arena and continues the trend of marketing buckshot as suitable  "...for predators, hogs and more."
     
    From the catalog, it appears this load uses lighter than lead pellets in a Flite-Control wad, launched at some 1600 fps.  This presumably from a 30 inch, (76 cm), standard SAAMI test barrel.
     
    See page 46 of the Federal 2015 catalog:
     
    http://www.federalpremium.com/downloads/catalog/2015_Federal_Premium_Catalog.pdf
     
    Here is the latest information release on the new PHD159 00 Federal Premium/Vital-Shok High Density Flite-Control buckshot
     
    http://media.vistaoutdoor.com/presskit/NPS/Federal_Premium/Vital-Shok_High_Density/15-NPS_Ammo_FederalPremium_HighDensityBuck_FNL.pdf
     
    The "High-Density" pellets appear to be the same as the ITX line of shot. If so the pellets will probably run to .325" with an individual pellet weight of 40 to 44 grains.
     
    http://tomboboutdoors.com/products/itx-shot.html

    Your thoughts...
    « Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 10:03:08 PM by RMc »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #239 on: March 25, 2015, 09:57:29 PM »
    Pandering to idiots only encourages them.    :scrutiny
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #240 on: March 25, 2015, 10:50:05 PM »
    i wonder how tungsten beads like used in fly fishing would work...
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #241 on: March 26, 2015, 12:55:26 AM »
    Well, California will effectively outlaw hunting with any type of lead projectiles statewide by 2019.

    Indeed, there are areas that now ban lead projectiles of any kind, including Buckshot, for hog hunting - like this one in Texas:

    http://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/2015%20Hog%20Hunt%20Information.pdf

                            Oh well.      :coffee
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #242 on: June 24, 2015, 04:56:45 AM »
    There is one question that still remains unanswered even with Federal's June 16 press release:
      - What choke constriction limits - if any - will Federal place on their new non-toxic High Density buckshot round? -

    https://www.federalpremium.com/news/news_releases.aspx?id=591&brand=5&year=2015

    From the press release:

    Part No. / Description / MSRP
    PHD159 00 / High Density 00 buck, 12-gauge, 2 3/4-inch / $16.95
    « Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 05:17:43 AM by RMc »
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    Grant

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #243 on: June 24, 2015, 07:55:50 AM »
    Well, California will effectively outlaw hunting with any type of lead projectiles statewide by 2019.

    Indeed, there are areas that now ban lead projectiles of any kind, including Buckshot, for hog hunting - like this one in Texas:

    http://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/2015%20Hog%20Hunt%20Information.pdf

                            Oh well.      :coffee
    FWIW: Shotgun pellets of ANY kind have had to be non-toxic for quite a few years on Preserves here in MT. 

    That said.....**** non-toxic shot  :cool
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #244 on: June 24, 2015, 09:11:16 AM »
    There is one question that still remains unanswered even with Federal's June 16 press release:
      - What choke constriction limits - if any - will Federal place on their new non-toxic High Density buckshot round? -

    https://www.federalpremium.com/news/news_releases.aspx?id=591&brand=5&year=2015

    From the press release:

    Part No. / Description / MSRP
    PHD159 00 / High Density 00 buck, 12-gauge, 2 3/4-inch / $16.95

    Just a guess, but the new load does have the FliteControl wad.  My experience with the lead version of 00B, if it holds true to this non-toxic version, suggests that it will work best with improved cylinder, but relatively immune to choke variations.

    The lead version is incredibly tight shooting, with typical groups having all 9 pellets in a 12" (6" from point of aim) or smaller circle at 50 yards.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #245 on: June 26, 2015, 09:13:02 PM »
    Today I sent the following inquiry to Federal about their new Vital-Shok® High Density® Buckshot:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is there any choke constriction that should not be used with Vital-Shok® High Density® Buckshot?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Stay tuned... :hmm
    « Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:43:41 PM by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #246 on: June 30, 2015, 09:34:51 PM »
    Federal Cartridge answered my query today:


    "Our Vital Shok High Density PHD159 00 uses the proprietary FLITECONTROL wad-designed to leave the barrel with the shot to help keep your pattern tighter and get more pellets on target. For maximum performance we recommend using standard chokes, factory chokes that do not strip the wad or reduce muzzle pressure (Ported/ Slotted). We recommend patterning your shot gun at either 30 or 40 yards, which ever you prefer, and to start with a Modified choke and work your way up to a Full. Do not use a choke tighter than FULL with our FLITECONTROL wad."

    Federal Cartridge   

                                                                         
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #247 on: June 30, 2015, 10:05:23 PM »
     :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #248 on: July 02, 2015, 04:17:55 AM »
    I was somewhat surprised with Federal's recommendation to "...start with a Modified choke and work your way up to a Full."  Given the performance of their lead FliteControl buckshot loads with more open chokes, I thought Improved Cylinder would have been the recommended starting point.  Perhaps the increased velocity of this new non-toxic load has something to do with it.   :hmm
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #249 on: July 02, 2015, 08:34:45 AM »
    Me too.  It may vary with shotgun irrespective of choke.  I might try to find some and play with it a bit, but will probably continue to "sling lead" with FliteControl wad as long as I can, considering its amazingly tight groups.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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