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Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 68858 times)

GeorgeHill

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Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #175 on: January 20, 2014, 10:22:36 PM »
Yeah, I don't read hunting articles.  Because I don't get to go hunting.  That takes time and money and I've got neither - so I don't tease myself.
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    mattitude

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #176 on: January 21, 2014, 09:07:55 AM »
    George, you've always had (and will have) and open invite to go hunting...so all you will need to do is spare some time.

    Yeah, I don't read hunting articles.  Because I don't get to go hunting.  That takes time and money and I've got neither - so I don't tease myself.
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #177 on: January 21, 2014, 05:47:03 PM »
    Better weather allowed me to resume my unscientific quest to pattern buckshot.  Same shotgun as in the earlier posts.  This time three different loads, each target is labeled with load and distance.  I placed and "x" or cross through each pellet hit to make them more visible on the camera.  If you see holes in the target that have an "o" or circle around them, ignore them, as that target was previously used for some other purpose (ran out of the nice little box lids that reasonably approximate the vitals on a deer).

    The different loads are:

    1.  Federal Premium 2 3/4" FliteControl 9 pellet 00B at 1325 fps.
    2.  Hornady Critical Defense 2 3/4" Versatite (licensed FliteControl from Federal) 8 pellet, 1600 fps.
    3.  Estate 2 3/4" standard 9 pellet 00B at 1325 (no shot cup, just three stacks of 3 pellets over the wad with a clear plastic cap roll crimped in place.

    This is far from scientific, as a true estimate of pattern would require many shots under much more controlled circumstances.  Here they are at distances of 15 yards, 25 yards, and for some, 50 yards.  Each will be posted separately to make it through any filters between me and you.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #178 on: January 21, 2014, 05:53:27 PM »
    FliteControl 9 pellet 00B, 1325 fps at 15 yards (baseline)
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #179 on: January 21, 2014, 05:55:25 PM »
    Hornady VersaTite 8 pellet, 1600 fps, 15 yards (baseline)
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #180 on: January 21, 2014, 05:59:40 PM »
    FliteControl 9 pellet 00B at 50 yards (intermediate range pattern posted earlier in this thread)
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #181 on: January 21, 2014, 06:01:37 PM »
    Hornady VersaTite 8 pellet, 1600 fps at 25 yards (intermediate range)
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #182 on: January 21, 2014, 06:05:03 PM »
    Hornady VersaTite 8 pellet, 1600 fps at 50 yards. Load shot high, so there could possibly be some pellets off the top of this target, disregard "o" circles shots, which are not a part of the pattern.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #183 on: January 21, 2014, 06:08:17 PM »
    Estate plain wad 00B 9 pellet, 1325 fps at 15 yards.  Note, this load would not pattern consistently at 25 yards and I gave up.  Some of the targets with "o"s in them were from my efforts to get this load to shoot any usable pattern even at 25 yards.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #184 on: January 21, 2014, 06:10:20 PM »
    Side-by-side comparison of Federal 12 gauge FliteControl wad (red) and Hornady 12 gauge Versatite wad (white).
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #185 on: January 21, 2014, 06:24:13 PM »
    Casualty report:

    I actually shot the picatinny rail off of the top of my shotgun during this testing!  The whole 6" Mesa Tactical rail with my Lucid M7 microdot was violently propelled up and right during one of the shots! No damage to rail or dot.   

    The Rem 1100 receiver top is very thin.  I thought I had enough "purchase" on the threads to hold the screws.  Wrong.  I don't know if I should try to drill and tap for larger screws or to recognize that this mounting method is not going to work.  After that event, about half way through testing but before I moved out to 50 yards, I just used the Remington Deer Gun rifle sights on the barrel.  Not as precise, but passable open sights.

    I now have installed a Remington saddle rail and remounted the M7, but have not checked zero beyond laser bore sighting it.  That mount, actually made by B-Square, but badged and sold by Remington, is ugly, but it will work.

    If I'm willing to drill through both the receiver and into the barrel shank that extends into the receiver past the chamber, I can tap for screws and get enough purchase to hold the Mesa Tactical rail.  Just didn't want to do that.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #186 on: January 21, 2014, 07:11:15 PM »
    The Da-Mar scope base may be an option if you prefer to maintain ease of barrel removal.  I do not have any direct experience with this mount system, however it has been around for a number of years.

    http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/rings-mounts-amp-bases/shotgun-bases/shotgun-scope-mount-prod7632.aspx
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #187 on: January 21, 2014, 07:29:25 PM »
    FliteControl 9 pellet 00B at 50 yards (intermediate range pattern posted earlier in this thread)

    Excellent!  All 9 pellets struck within approximately 6-7 inches of center at 50 yards.
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #188 on: January 21, 2014, 09:43:12 PM »
    Thanks, RMc, I'll give this a hard look.  Great find.

    As to the 50 yard goup, FC is the real deal.  100% pattern density on a target that small at 50 yards is absolutely devastatingly lethal. 

    I was disappointed with the faster but lighter Hornady 8 pellet version.  I need to test it more.  I have a theory about why it did not do as well at 50, although 4 pellets (50%) is still superior to anything else I know of.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #189 on: January 23, 2014, 11:41:18 AM »
    Looks like the Hornady wad is slightly shorter than the Federal wad - wonder if that's part of the equation @ 50 yards?
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #190 on: January 23, 2014, 08:49:46 PM »
    George, you've always had (and will have) and open invite to go hunting...so all you will need to do is spare some time.

    Thank you for that, Matt.  Maybe Fall of 2014.   We still need to go fishing.
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #191 on: January 23, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »
    That Hornady wad looks very much like the FC wad... and performs the same.  This is good.  That wad is a brilliant concept that should have come out decades and decades ago.  It's so simple. 
    So... now we have 2 good sources. 
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #192 on: January 23, 2014, 09:59:47 PM »
    Looks like the Hornady wad is slightly shorter than the Federal wad - wonder if that's part of the equation @ 50 yards?

    Yes.  It is licensed by Federal to Hornady, but is obviously modified.  It is shorter.  That maybe only because there is one less pellet in the load and the shot is arranged a bit differently.  If you look into the bottom of the VersaTite cup there are actually little recesses or round pockets for the bottom three pellets to sit in.  Those recesses are not present in the FC wad cup.

    It would take a lot more shooting to see if the Hornady pattern is, indeed, only 50% of a 10-12"  circle at 50 yards (still great) compared to the denser 100% pattern of the FliteControl.  But, I have a reason, presently unconfirmed, to believe that the FliteControl will shoot tighter.

    There is a significant difference in how far downrange the pellets remain in the wad cup.  This is not noticable at 25 yards.  But back up to 50 and the white VersaTite wads are falling to the ground a good 10-15 yards before the FliteControl.  My theory is that the longer the pellets remain inside the cup, the less time and distance they have to separate.

    There is another variable that may contribute to what seems to be a tighter 50 yard pattern for FC:  velocity.

    The FC load leaves the barrel at the more standard 1325 fps, while the lighter VT load is moving considerably faster at 1600.  I did not chrono these, and am relying on published specs.  That difference is significant.

    My theory is if the VT load is moving 275 fps faster and the wad falls away farther from the target, this combo of differences may result in the relatively poorer pattern of the VT.

    Regardless.  Either is lethal on deer at 50 yards and requires attention to precise aiming, rather than shotgun "pointing.

    At up to 25 yards there seems to be no difference.  I am a bit inclined to think 9 pellets at 1325 is better than 8 at 1600 for personal defense at home hallway distances where patterns will be baseball size and overpenetration might be an issue. 

    When weather improves, i'll continue the comparison and see where it leads and also back up to 60 yards for giggles.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #193 on: February 11, 2014, 10:51:25 PM »
    Last fall, when I was patterning the federal PFC154 load(2 3/4 hull, 9 pellet 00, 1325 fps) at the local range, I was consistently finding the shot cups around the 40 yard line.  Patterns at 50 yards were mostly all 9 pellets in the 7 ring or better, in 6 different shotguns tested that day.  There were occasional fliers, but they were few and far between.  Mostly even targets as far as spread went, with no "donut effect" noted.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #194 on: February 12, 2014, 08:34:09 AM »
    Last fall, when I was patterning the federal PFC154 load(2 3/4 hull, 9 pellet 00, 1325 fps) at the local range, I was consistently finding the shot cups around the 40 yard line.  Patterns at 50 yards were mostly all 9 pellets in the 7 ring or better, in 6 different shotguns tested that day.  There were occasional fliers, but they were few and far between.  Mostly even targets as far as spread went, with no "donut effect" noted.

    Can you provide just a bit more detail?

    - "...7 ring or better"  Diameter of 7 ring?

    - "...6 different shotguns..."   Choke selection / field or riot/slug length barrels?
    « Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 09:27:21 AM by RMc »
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #195 on: February 12, 2014, 09:03:50 AM »
    Last fall, when I was patterning the federal PFC154 load(2 3/4 hull, 9 pellet 00, 1325 fps) at the local range, I was consistently finding the shot cups around the 40 yard line.  Patterns at 50 yards were mostly all 9 pellets in the 7 ring or better, in 6 different shotguns tested that day.  There were occasional fliers, but they were few and far between.  Mostly even targets as far as spread went, with no "donut effect" noted.

    Shot cup at about the 40 yard line is consistent with my experience with FC in my 20" IC tube.  The VersaTite cups hit the ground at about 25 yards down range.

    Please provide more info about guns, choke, barrel length, et cetera.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #196 on: February 16, 2014, 02:47:38 AM »
    Missed a rather important derail there didn't I.  Sorry it was late.  Info was in my head, but didn't translate to the keyboard.  :facepalm  I was shooting at full sized b-27 silhouette targets.-- Width wise spreads were running 7 or better, height wise, 8 or better.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #197 on: June 13, 2014, 03:19:58 AM »
    Another questionable page written in the book of buckshot pellet size confusion.

    Isn't 00B generic for any buckshot?  :eh

    Well any way here is the story of another spin at 20 gauge 00B:

    This time from a new outfit out of Rimrock, Texas importing ammo under the Spartan label from somewhere in the European Union.  Ran across these 9 pellet rounds at Academy Sports.

    http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/spartan-sa2000-20-gauge-buckshot/pid-968128

    Did a little online check to see what the scoop was. Low an behold the marketing department at Spartan Ammunition, LLC either made a mistake or perhaps - :o - no it couldn't be.

    Well it seems like some of the "good ol'e boys" must have complained to the Spartan folks that you just can't get that many real 00B pellets in a little fold crimped 20 gauge round.

    Well all that complaining must have upset the boss down in Rimrock.   :panic

    Because low an behold that 20 Gauge Spartan round is now #1 Buckshot:

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-891

                                                   :coffee

    « Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:39:41 AM by RMc »
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #198 on: June 13, 2014, 09:15:02 AM »
    Things like this are rampant across the gun industry.  Not just in Buckshot.   But it's especially bad in Shotgun Shells because not enough people know the differences, care, and you can't see inside a shotshell without ruining it.  So it goes on. 
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #199 on: June 13, 2014, 01:22:53 PM »
    True.  That said, I'm perfectly happy with #1 buckshot in most any application I'd be using  #00 for.  Seems to me that stacking pattern density within the unfired shell is the place where downrange pattern density begins, no? 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

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