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Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 67855 times)

RMc

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Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #150 on: December 11, 2013, 12:03:59 PM »
Mississippi556,

I find it interesting that you "... did a lot of test firing with conventional buckshot available back in the '70's..." before concluding that improved cylinder chokes tended to pattern better with buckshot than tighter constrictions.  With the singular popularity of 00B and the tight three pellet per layer stack of conventional 00B rounds, I understand how that conclusion could be reached.

The 1980's saw the introduction of Federal's Premium line of buckshot ammunition. Widely advertised in the South at that time, the offset or "spiral" stacking of the pellets, along with plastic shot cups, buffer, copper plated and  high antimony shot used in this round, quickly established it as the go-to round for Southern deer hunters. 

I remember one long barrel full choke model 1100 that threw 15 inch doughnut patterns with Federal's 12 pellet "regular" short magnum 00B round at 25 yards.  The Federal Premium round lived up to its advertising with that shotgun. The pellet offset afforded by spiral stacking allow the pellets to flow rather than bridge in the  full choke. Immediately, I was rewarded by 100% sub-ten inch patterns at 25 yards with this 12 pellet load. Federal's Premium buckshot line provided similar pattern success in several other tightly choked shotguns I tested at the time. 





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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #151 on: December 11, 2013, 11:28:34 PM »
    Well I have some 00B Federal FliteControl shells now.  I think I'll see how they do at 35 and 50 yards this weekend from an IC choked barrel.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #152 on: December 13, 2013, 12:04:36 AM »
    Yes that will be interesting, because it performs really well in my cylinder bore shotgun.

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #153 on: December 15, 2013, 04:22:23 AM »
    Let the patterning begin!  :cool

    -----------------------------------------------

    A few years ago, I spoke at length with Federal ammunition engineer, Rochelle Poore, on her recommendations for choke and forcing cone length for the then new Flite Control Buckshot loads for deer hunting. She recommended conventional short forcing cones and starting with improved cylinder and then increasing choke constriction until the best pattern was found for the shotgun used. 

    From the many Flite Control buckshot, turkey and waterfowl loads currently availble, it is clear that rounds using this rear braking wad technology are not choke dependent for top performance. Indeed, too much choke or the use of wad retarding chokes, (ie. Patternmaster & Wad Wizard), can impede the best performance.

    I suspect, many "buckshot country" hunters only tried Flite Control wads through their tightly choked deer guns and if the load didn't perform, wrote them off without further testing. Apparently the concept of having tight choke performance built into the wad seems counter-intuitive to many.

    On the other hand, even Field and Stream seems to have finally "discovered" the existence of Flite Control buckshot. Particularly after MadOgre's YouTube video was picked up:

    The article:

    http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/08/few-words-about-buckshot

    MadOgre's video:


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    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #154 on: December 15, 2013, 03:03:23 PM »
    Hey, I recognize that video. . . . . . . . .

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #155 on: December 15, 2013, 09:58:34 PM »
    Ha!  Awesome.   
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #156 on: December 15, 2013, 10:50:18 PM »
    Well I have some 00B Federal FliteControl shells now.  I think I'll see how they do at 35 and 50 yards this weekend from an IC choked barrel.

    Results were pretty much the same as George's video.  I didn't take any video.  Shotgun barrel was IC.  What is really strange to my traditional buckshot expectations is how fist size the shot pattern remains out to 50. Very little change from 35 to 50.  This is buckshot you can actually aim, rather than merely point.  I did not try to shoot any further out.  I did keep the targets and could take some photos, but they would add nothing to the discussion.

    I was also very satisfied that the pattern for standard #1 buckshot was tight enough at "home hallway distance" to use in for HD and save the FC stuff for the woods.   Standard #1 really opened up badly by 25 yards and would be useless for personal defense or deer hunting beyond that range.   But, the pattern was fist size at 10 yards, and about the size of a 10" pie plate at 15, which is about the max range I'd encounter in my home.  At 15 yards and in, I'll take the full power standard #1s.

    As a part of my setup protocol, I first fired a few regular foster one ounce slugs to check the sight in for the open rife sights and the little Lucid M7 micro dot.  I only shot them at 25 yards.  Those slugs darn near penetrated 12 inches of wet sandbags, knocking some of the bags off the stack behind the target.   That's some brutal stuff if you can hit accurately with them.  Hadn't shot slugs in a while.  They grouped about 4 inches at 25 yards, making a ragged hole.  Better than I expected, too.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #157 on: December 15, 2013, 11:54:13 PM »
    Mississippi556,

    I believe pictures of your patterns with details of gun and choke, would add greatly to this discussion.

    RMc
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #158 on: December 16, 2013, 12:54:02 PM »
    Gun is a Remington 12 gauge Model 1100 "Deer Gun" with 20" barrel, adjustable open rifle sights and fixed improved cylinder choke.  It has been modified to create a home brew "tactical" shotgun with extended magazine tube, Mesa Tactical top Picatinny rail, Speed Feed pistol grip stock, a magazine extension tube mini-rail for a flashlight (Insight WL-1-AA) with pressure pad switch.  On the rail is a little Lucid M7 micro dot.  There is a six slot "side saddle" shell holder on the left side of the receiver. 

    I fired the gun both ways, with the dot and through the "rifle" sights with some slugs to make sure both optics were properly sighted it before playing with the buckshot.  Once the M7 zero was confirmed, all buckshot was fired by using that dot sight.   

    None of that probably matters other than the gauge and barrel characteristics.  I'll have to take pictures of the targets.  I think I saved all or most of them. Give me a couple days.  The patterns look different than George's video, because I changed targets each time, so I was not shooting through and enlarging the same hole as in that impressive video.   

    Here is the shotgun: 
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #159 on: December 20, 2013, 09:23:39 AM »
    What ever happened to Estate 00 buckshot loads?

    Estate buckshot rounds are now loaded in France using Cheddite hulls. These are full length 2.75" rounds,   roll crimped with a clear plastic overshot wad, no buffer and no shotcup. 
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #160 on: December 20, 2013, 02:10:08 PM »
    I have a 25 round box of 2 3/4" Estate in 00B!   Yes, they have a sort of strange looking clear plastic cap over the shot that is kept in place by a roll crimp.  You can look right at the top three shot layer.

    I picked them up at either a Bass Pro Shop or Gander Mountain box store about a year ago.   I haven't really done anything with them, though.  Just bought them for "insurance" and out of curiosity.  I think I fired two rounds to make sure they would cycle in my autoloader.  They did. But I don't even remember what kind of groups they shot or at what range I was shooting.  I don't think I even had a target up.  Knocking bark off of a tree sort of thing.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #161 on: December 20, 2013, 04:39:25 PM »
    It is a good idea to function check new shells.

    Most imported European buckshot rounds are roll crimped in 2.75" cases.  These rounds are the same overall length as fold crimp 3" loads.  Some repeating shotguns, like the 2 3/4" chambered Winchester 1200 and 1400 series of the 1960s and 70s, have short actions that will not function with full length roll crimp shells. 

    From a handloaders standpoint roll crimping 2 3/4" shells results in a slightly greater internal capacity than the same type of 3" hulls loaded with a fold crimp!
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #162 on: December 21, 2013, 08:22:45 AM »
    Estate loads have poor shot cups.  I'd only use them for blasting.

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    goatroper

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #163 on: December 22, 2013, 02:22:24 PM »
    These are on sale now at TargetSportsUSA:

    Federal Law Enforcement Ammo 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 8 Pellets Ammunition
    Flitecontrol wad

    http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-3291-federal-law-enforcement-ammo-12-gauge-2-34-00-buckshot-8-pellets-ammunition.aspx

    Better prices than I can find locally here in Podunk, and free shipping by the case.


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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #164 on: January 07, 2014, 11:21:25 PM »
    Deer Hunting Performance Test! Federal Flite Control 00 Buckshot

    Fifty five yard field test on Deer - pushing the limits?


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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #165 on: January 08, 2014, 02:22:42 PM »
    Pretty impressive shot count in the vitals.  Open sight shot was well-placed.  Most of the video is boring.  Beyond boring, but the essense of it is that 55 yard shots are reasonable and humane with FC buck.

    Its been cold everywhere, even here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast where yesterday morning it was 15 degrees, so I've been a bit lazy about organizing those buckshot targets I shot a while back and saved in the barn.  Some of them I failed to write info on, so I may have to re-shoot them.   I am attaching some which I did label.

    They are self explanatory:

    One is with over the counter "standard" wad #1 Buckshot, 16 pellets at 15 yards, intended for home defense.  The box lid used as a target is 12"x 15"  -- all 16 are accounted for.  Maximum spread is about 10-11 inches.   Not great, but adequate for home defense use at close range.

    Another is the FC 00B at the same 15 yard range.  This is the high power 9 pellet load.   Maximum spread is only about 4" and most of the pellets are within 2" and five of the nine are in a ragged hole.

    The third is with the same FC 00B 9 pellet load at 35 yards.  It is now opening up in my 20"  IC barrel, but 5 of the 9 are within a 4 inch circle, which is pretty impressive. Four of 9 are in only 2.5" or so.    Maximum spread would be about 7" but for the one flyer in the far left, which opens the pattern up.

    The cross marks were put on the targets for aiming purposes, the free hand circles were added after the targets were brought back to the barn and labeled, just to provide some perspective.

    My criteria for buckshot is at least four pellets in the vitals at maximum shooting range and vitals considered to be a 10 inch pie plate.

    I'm going to reshoot at 50 yards with the FC 9 shot load to make sure we're looking at the right targets.   I think there will be at least 4 of the 9 in 10 inches, probably as many as 6.  I just don't trust my memory on the unlabeled targets, some of which were used to sight in the Lucid M7 red dot and center the pattern, which is a bit different than with slugs.  Also some of the unlabeled targets were shot with the barrel's Remington "Deer" iron sights, and others with the M7, so I need to be consistent with my aiming point.  No magnified optics were used.

    I can say that this barrel is a decent performer but may not be optimal.  More to come.
    « Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 03:03:00 PM by Mississippi556 »
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #166 on: January 08, 2014, 07:05:31 PM »
    Federal FC loads make everything else look stupid.
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #167 on: January 08, 2014, 09:24:18 PM »
    I actually liked the video...probably because I've never seen anyone shoot a deer with buckshot before as well as the full forensics.  In  many places in the South hunting with buckshot at driven deer is a tradition.  The guy is non-stop talking (he talked more in that 13 minutes than I do in a full year) but I thought he did a good job.  I did shoot my Benelli M4 at targets w/00 buckshot (5, 10 & 25yds) and tried to video it but my memory card was full and it's been too cold lately to hit the range for a repeat.
    North CarolinaMedically retired Air Force (17 years, 7 months & 25 days)

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #168 on: January 08, 2014, 10:18:10 PM »
    Mattitude:

    If you will skim through the earlier posts on this thread you will find a number of videos of buckshot deer kills, all however at shorter ranges than 55 yards.  In most of the other videos, not only were the ranges were shorter, but the deer were apparently smaller bodied and dropped in place at the shot.
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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #169 on: January 09, 2014, 10:41:34 AM »
    I will do that for sure  :D

    Mattitude:

    If you will skim through the earlier posts on this thread you will find a number of videos of buckshot deer kills, all however at shorter ranges than 55 yards.  In most of the other videos, not only were the ranges were shorter, but the deer were apparently smaller bodied and dropped in place at the shot.
    North CarolinaMedically retired Air Force (17 years, 7 months & 25 days)

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #170 on: January 09, 2014, 12:06:48 PM »
    Loved the shotgun in that video.  A Marine Magnum with Rifle Sights?
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #171 on: January 09, 2014, 01:26:35 PM »
    Loved the shotgun in that video.  A Marine Magnum with Rifle Sights?

    Looking closely at frame 5.04 those look suspiciously like XS/AO Express sights.    :coffee
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #172 on: January 10, 2014, 07:45:55 PM »
    I just sent an inquiry to Rio Ammunition requesting the actual pellet diameter used in their 9 pellet
     20 gauge 00B load as shown here:

    http://www.rioammo.com/law_enforcement/rio_LE_buckshot.html


     20 gauge 2 3/4" RB209 Royal Buck Shot 9 00 1345 fps
     

    Update:

    RIO has changed the 20 gauge shot designation to #1B on the above listed site. 
    The 9 pellets run roughly 3/4th ounce.  No shot cup and no buffer.
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #173 on: January 13, 2014, 05:48:00 PM »
    Just found some Hornady Critical Defense "VersaTite" 00B.  This uses the FliteControl wad, but is loaded with 8 pellets at a scorching 1600 fps.  So, its neither reduced recoil nor full power 9 pellet Federal.  A bit different than either.  Not sure if the pellets are copper plated, as with the Federal loads.

    I see that the Hornady Critical Defense loads have been discussed earlier in this thread, but don't see that anyone did any personal patterning.  Perhaps I missed that.

    I'll try to test some of it along with my re-shooting at 50 yards of the FC full power stuff.  Weather has been crazy here, so that may have to wait another week or two. 

    I'm a bit worried that 1600 fps will result in over penetration for HD.  It will not matter for me, because my wife and I are the only occupants in our home and we are waaaaay out in the country with neighbors well beyond shotgun range.  But it may matter to others.  I do not have the ballistic gel or equivalent to do reliable penetration testing, so I'll just be shooting for pattern size.

    BTW:  We are in the height of deer season "with dogs" right now (sort of a redneck version of fox hunting).  FliteControl and VersaTite have been discovered and appreciated, so its very hard to find much of it right now.  I couldn't find more Federal FC wad stuff at all, so I'm being careful to try to save some of it.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #174 on: January 20, 2014, 10:11:49 PM »
    Driving deer with dogs?

    You may enjoy looking through the window dimly at Traditional Southern Hunting in the Carolinas:



    wethearmed.com/hunting-fishing-and-trapping/traditional-southern-hunting-how-it-was-and-is-done!

    « Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:37:37 PM by RMc »
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