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Author Topic: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -  (Read 66973 times)

RMc

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Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2013, 11:26:08 PM »
Seems to work well enough.
Buffering seems to be a thing of past.  With modern shot cups, pellet deformity isn't so much a concern.

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George:

There is no doubt today's top of the line conventional swaged buckshot are made of  harder lead alloy.  And better pellet "lubricity" or flow characteristics have been long sought through plating, graphite and other substances.  Also the new slower-burning progressive shotshell powders, some originally developed for steel and other hard non-toxic shot, have indeed lessened the effect of setback pellet deformation. So I can see how Hornady makes this work with the VersaTite wad. 

However, Federal's lead Flite-Control buckshot loads do indeed contain buffer.   :hmm

 

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:27:15 AM by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #126 on: February 18, 2013, 08:38:22 PM »
    Wyoming hunters can use buckshot

    For all big and trophy game species, legal firearms include Shotguns firing “00″ or larger buckshot.


    http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/wyoming-hunters-get-new-regulations
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #127 on: March 06, 2013, 11:52:35 PM »
    I ran across this Gelatin Test of Hornady Tap FPD (For Personal Defense?) eight pellet 00B.
    Note at frame 2.26 how deformed the recovered pellets are. 
    My recent correspondence with Hornady indicates the FPD series buckshot rounds are indeed loaded with low antimony lead pellets for reduced penetration.

    !
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #128 on: March 07, 2013, 12:37:57 AM »
    Reduced penetration also means more trauma.

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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #129 on: July 11, 2013, 01:58:24 PM »
    Buckshot size is what the manufacturer decides it will be.

    Before some argue, yes the Sporting Arms and Manufacturers Institute has some base standards, however, even SAAMI members are not bound to follow. Also SAAMI voluntary buckshot "standards" are quite wide. For example SAAMI 00B can run from .315" to .345" and still meet the "standard."

    By the way the SAAMI top end of #1B is .315" and the lower end of 000B is .345"
    So, using the SAAMI standard for 00 buckshot one could load different shells with pellets of .315", .320", .325", .330", .335", .340", and .345" diameter and call each 00B!
    Don't forget, several of these could also be called #1B, 0B and 000B.

    Just as what manufacturers describe as a "shotgun slug" has changed, so has what manufacturers describe as "buckshot" has also.

    Today factory buckshot ammo is available in pellet diameters ranging from .18" to .60"

    Did I mention "Western Buckshot" sizes?

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #130 on: July 11, 2013, 10:23:16 PM »
     :facepalm
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #131 on: July 12, 2013, 01:16:57 AM »
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #132 on: July 12, 2013, 05:21:47 PM »
    Reduced penetration also means more trauma.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

    I agree.  That is if I am hearing you to say or imply that the penetration is sufficient to reach the vitals. 

     Ideally, I would want a bullet or projectile to expand quickly to 1.5 to 2 times original diameter and to expend 100% of its energy and just barely exit the back side of the intended target.   That way you get maximum energy transfer and tissue disruption with substantial bleeding internally and externally with no risk of over penetration and damage to anything else.  Given the variables involved, this is a very difficult task, especially with buckshot where shot deformation tends to result in blown patterns.

    All things considered, having seen the effect of modern #1, 0 and 00 hard buckshot on deer sized game, it is devastatingly effective at close range, much less so once you get beyond 35-40 yards and patterns spread, even with the new wads.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:34:11 PM by Mississippi556 »
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #133 on: July 13, 2013, 01:13:21 AM »

    All things considered, having seen the effect of modern #1, 0 and 00 hard buckshot on deer sized game, it is devastatingly effective at close range, much less so once you get beyond 35-40 yards and patterns spread, even with the new wads.

    Buckshot is indeed "devastatingly effective" on deer within its range. The biggest problem I have seen over the years can charitably be referred to as "operator error" - failure to pattern test and establish minimum pattern/maximum range criteria.  Though this seems to be changing - some hunting clubs even have pre-season patterning contests for members!

    By the way, you might like to check this Big Buckshot thread out:
     
    http://wethearmed.com/shotguns/tri-ball/msg159875/#msg159875



    Good to see another member here from the Gulf Coast!   :thumbup1

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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #134 on: August 11, 2013, 04:49:29 PM »
    The question remains: Why hasn't Federal introduced a 20 Gauge Flite-Control buckshot load?
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #135 on: August 11, 2013, 05:58:37 PM »
    Because they are stupid for not doing so when they released it for the 12. 
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #136 on: August 23, 2013, 03:26:28 AM »


    Deer hunting with buckshot is not just limited to the South:


    http://www.sheridanmedia.com/news/clinic-hunt-deer-buckshot65101
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #137 on: August 23, 2013, 12:49:30 PM »
    Not wanting to derail the thread, I would nonetheless observe that my use of buckshot remains for either HD or for deer hunting at very moderate range in heavy woods.   The advances in shot hardness and wads now extend effective buckshot range to perhaps 75 yards for me.

    Even so, at any distance beyond 50 yards, I do not personally have the confidence and certainty of a quick kill with buckshot.  Beyond 50 yards, if allowed by law, I will almost always choose a true deer rifle, typically a bolt action, in a non-magnum caliber suitable for the purpose (.280 Rem,  7mm Rem mag, .308 Win or .30-'06). During primitive weapons season here, where only single shot weapons of "antique" cartridge chambering is allowed, I use a .45-70 with very stout Buffalo Bore loads to extend range somewhat.  Match the weapon to the job. 
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #138 on: September 13, 2013, 12:32:48 AM »
    Not wanting to derail the thread, I would nonetheless observe that my use of buckshot remains for either HD or for deer hunting at very moderate range in heavy woods.   The advances in shot hardness and wads now extend effective buckshot range to perhaps 75 yards for me.

    Even so, at any distance beyond 50 yards, I do not personally have the confidence and certainty of a quick kill with buckshot.  Beyond 50 yards, if allowed by law, I will almost always choose a true deer rifle, typically a bolt action, in a non-magnum caliber suitable for the purpose (.280 Rem,  7mm Rem mag, .308 Win or .30-'06). During primitive weapons season here, where only single shot weapons of "antique" cartridge chambering is allowed, I use a .45-70 with very stout Buffalo Bore loads to extend range somewhat.  Match the weapon to the job. 

    Shotguns loaded with buckshot are not rifles. So noted, no derailment.
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #139 on: September 17, 2013, 01:04:57 AM »
    Ballistic gelatin tests of buckshot are seldom fired at more than a few yards. That said, here is a 50 yard test for both retained velocity and penetration from Brassfetcher.  Even reduced velocity 00B was still running over 860 fps and penetrated over 14 inches into the gelatin block.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #140 on: September 17, 2013, 01:23:33 AM »
    Very interesting.  Thanks for posting.   :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #141 on: September 17, 2013, 01:00:15 PM »
    Very interesting video.  Thanks for posting.  Good penetration and nice retained velocity.  Even so, I worry that a 54.8 grain pellet (00B) at 860 fps produces only 88 foot pounds of energy.  Assuming a good tight pattern with multiple hits, then, yes, it is still quite effective.   But the combination of low energy and a poorly placed shot still makes me reluctant to use buckshot when deer hunting unless in very heavy woods at ranges inside 50 yards.

    Hunting deer ahead of dogs is still popular in this state.   Not my cup of tea, but I've been on some of those hunts.   Cover is usually thick and shotguns with buckshot are frequently used.  Longer shots produce sub-fatal wounds (at least initially), and the dogs end up running the deer for very long distances before the deer finally drops and the dogs bay.  Not my idea of sportsmanship.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #142 on: September 17, 2013, 07:44:31 PM »
    Mississippi556

    What minimum pattern standard would you use to establish the maximum range that you would use conventional small pellet, (00B, 1B, 4B), buckshot on deer size game?
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #143 on: September 18, 2013, 10:18:52 AM »
    RMc, that's a sound question that I don't have personal empirical evidence to answer.   My frame of reference is purely anecdotal, coming from the field.   South Mississippi deer habitat pine woods with a lot of brush and undergrowth, or in hardwood creek bottoms.  In both situations, range is very short.   In the hunting club I was in that did run dogs, I shot quite a few deer with 00B and saw a lot more being cleaned in the cleaning shed.   Most of the deer had at least 4 pellets or 5 pellets in the vitals, usually more.   Those with less were usually bayed by the dogs after long runs, sometimes miles (that club had 4000 acres under lease and Walker hounds can cover a lot of territory very quickly).

    I do not think that the frequently cited "1,000 foot pounds of energy" formula for rifle bullets translates well to multiple projectile shells like buckshot, because 4 or 5 pellets are still going to be well below that threshold, and a single pellet to the brain is fatal.  #1B will have less energy, but typically patterns better, at least for me in my gun (more about that later).

    It also probably matters a little whether you're shooting at a standing still deer, or if you are shooting at one running full speed ahead of a pack of dogs and you're trying to estimate lead and shot string on a moving target, like wingshooting.   But, clearly the more modern loads with Flight Control wads will hold a tighter pattern and have a better chance of getting at least 5 or more pellets in the vitals.   Our deer here have smaller bodies, although antlers can still be impressive.  A typical whitetail buck will not exceed 200 lbs, so the vitals are correspondingly smaller.

    Another factor to consider is that different barrels pattern buckshot differently.  You MUST pattern buckshot in YOUR barrel to identify which load and buckshot size works best.  Frankly, I've not patterned recently beyond 15 yards, because I'm not hunting with buckshot these days.  I reserve it for HD, where range will never exceed 15 yards and will more likely be only half of that.

    So, my empirical evidence for pattern density and range is borrowed:

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56_2.htm

    If that data is accurate and typical of most 12 gauge barrels, then 35 yards is scary poor for "ordinary" buckshot and still pretty good for #1B Federal Flight Control.  To answer your question, based on that data, "conventional" buckshot would not meet my 4-5 pellet criteria beyond about 20 yards, and that is consistent with my anecdotal experience. I'd take a 35 yard shot with Flight Control #1B, but you can see that the pattern is starting to open up.   50 yards MAY be the safe limit to put 4-5 00B Federal FCW load in a small whitetail vitals reliably, but that is speculation on my part as to range.

    « Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:29:53 AM by Mississippi556 »
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #144 on: September 18, 2013, 02:13:07 PM »
      I agree with the 4-5 pellet estimate.   AND penetration at that range.

       Biggest thing is with everything in this thread talking about shotguns, pattern, energy,etc.etc.  it should reinforce that if you are going to use a shotgun and buckshot, SHOOT IT AT RANGE and TEST it.

       #1 Buck patterns horribly in my shotguns.  #4 buck does well from Federal and not WInchester.  It means use EACH LOAD out of EACH shotgun you are going to use.

       For instance, ironically the super-very best patterning load I use is cheap "junk" Nobelsport 12 pellet 00 Buck.   At 20 yards everything stays inside a 20" circle and at 30 yards 9 pellets are still usually in a 24" circle.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #145 on: September 18, 2013, 06:50:33 PM »
    Which reinforces your point about pattern testing your gun and load at the range.  Every one of my guns is a law unto itself  :facepalm .  It doesn't matter who loads the ammo or how much it costs, just where the pellets go at a given range.   In my experience 40 yards is the outer limit of effective range with any sort of load that would be capable of taking deer cleanly and I'd cut ten yards off that if the deer was moving.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #146 on: September 18, 2013, 09:43:23 PM »
    As for borrowed emperical evidence: Consider that choke boring works better - even with Flite-Control wads.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu148_5.htm

    On the other hand Federal #1 Buckshot pellets run 17% smaller than nominal.
    « Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:58:39 PM by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #147 on: September 19, 2013, 12:12:54 AM »
    Back to the concept of minimum pattern to determine maximum range for deer hunting?

    Is there a criteria that can be applied to all conventional buckshot sizes?  Perhaps FPE, penetration, weight, number of hits, overall pattern size, core pattern, or some other method.   :hmm

    « Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 01:36:55 AM by RMc »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #148 on: September 19, 2013, 11:21:25 AM »
    Shotgunning, and for that matter hunting, is not an exact science.  With my 20 gauge Browning A5 I try for 50% pattern density in an 18 inch circle with a given load.  I cannot get that consistently beyond twenty five yards no matter which load I have tried.  My 12 gauge Remington 870 will do it with a couple of loads and my 12 gauge Remington 1100 will do it with a couple as well.  I have a Savage 311 with bobbed barrels that is the bedstand gun and it will only meet that standard at about 15 yards. 

    I think the 24" circle is useful primarily for bird loads and not really adequate for most deer hunting situations.  I use mostly 00 down to #4 for everything but birds and I am shooting mostly 2 3/4 inch shells.  The best long range performance I've gotten is from the Federal "Flite Control" load in the Remington 1100 which would be my go to gun for a possible long shot for anything from turkey to deer to a coyote out to 40 yards.  Winchester Double X, 2 3/4" high base, #4  or the same shell in #00 is the general go to load for camping and home defense but works well enough for hunting out to 30 yards or so.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Over the counter buckshot loads: My observations -
    « Reply #149 on: September 19, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »
    We need to remind ourselves just how small the vital heart/lung area is of the typical whitetail deer, when we pull the trigger on buckshot:

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/kill_zone_game_animals.htm

    I admit that I am a rifleman at heart and only hunt with buckshot when in very dense woods.  So, maybe I'm prejudiced.  Even so, I, of necessity, have had to hunt with it and have my own "kill zone" oriented philosophy, good, bad, right or wrong.  I don't like wounding game and would rather pass the shot than have the animal escape only to suffer and die later.

    So, I consider a 9-10 inch pie plate or paper plate as the vital area and feel that I need to see 4-5 pellets of 00B in that area.  That's small.  And that's just me.   For that to be done with "conventional" buckshot, you're talking about no more than 20 yards - 60 feet, from most barrels.  Choke does matter and some guns shoot buckshot better with tighter choke and with some, it makes the pattern worse.  I've had best luck with improved cylinder barrels on those shotguns I've patterned with "conventional" buckshot, typically 2 3/4" 00B, 9 pellet, Remington.  Those include two different Remington 1100's, one tactical with rifle sights and fixed IC choke, the other a wooden stocked "bird gun" with interchangeable choke tubes.  I've also pattenered two different Browning Auto 5's, both Belgian FN's, one a 3" Magnum 30" full chock fixed barrel, and the  other a non-magnum with a replacement Browning  Miroku 26" barrel with interchangeable tubes.   Finally I patterened conventional 00B through my Model 12 3" Magnum Heavy Duck Gun (30 inch full choke fixed barrel).

    You can have the same setup on the same type guns and get different patterns,  That's the way barrels and buckshot are.

    My experience has been that the IC barrels tend to do better.  I was particularly disappointed at how poorly the 3" magnum full choke guns did with conventional buckshot, and both did better with 2 3/4 inch loads that with 3".  Both of those guns throw super tight patterns with duck and goose loads or with lead turkey loads.   They will not pattern buckshot worth a rat's a**, and I will not go smaller than #1B.

    The best of my guns for tight patterns with buckshot happens to be the 1100 "Deer Gun" that I recently converted to tactical.  I guess that Remington was on to something when they designed that 22" barrel with rifle sights and the IC fixed choke.  Maybe it's barrel harmonics, maybe they did something different with the chokes and did a lot of test firing with conventional buckshot available back in the '70's when that gun was made.  It is the ONLY one of my shotguns that I've tested with conventional 00B that would put 4-5 pellets on a 10 inch paper plate at 30 yards consistently, and just barely so.

    I need to test Flight Control Wad Buckshot in all of those guns and see what they do.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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