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Author Topic: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition  (Read 4094 times)

RMc

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Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
« on: March 24, 2017, 02:12:42 PM »
Frankly, two simple 1 ounce 12 and 20 gauge factory rounds loaded with "T" Buckshot* would fill a major gap in the available home defense ammunition marketplace.

"T" Lead Buckshot:
.200" diameter
11.5 grains each
38.0 pellets per ounce


* Recognized as a Buckshot size by the Sporting Arms and Manufacturers' Institute, as well as by commercial suppliers of lead buckshot pellets.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 03:17:52 PM by RMc »
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    Grant

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 10:05:01 PM »
       What's wrong with #4 buck?  .24 diameter 20 grains per pellet.

      I personally never go lower than that, and most "buckshot users" agree #4 is as low as they go.

    Usually the rest swing all the way to light trap loads.

    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 11:52:43 PM »
    I always figured #1 or #2 buckshot was probably the best - especially in anything smaller than a 12 gauge.  Sometimes its hard to find but it has always patterned well for me.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Roper1911

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #3 on: March 25, 2017, 10:18:45 AM »
    I have herters 2 1/2 inch 00 buck in mine. though a short load of no. 4 would be ideal because you could fit more pellets.
    I still need to see about getting some double ball to test...
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

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    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 07:53:49 PM »
    With all the "concern" expressed on the 'net for overpenetration in home defense shotgun loads, it seems that a minimal Buckshot size, sufficient to punch 12+ inches into a FBI spec. gelatin block, would be a commercial success.

    Since I could not find any exemplary lead T Buckshot gelatin tests, consider this one of a Hornady BB load at 5 yards.  Start at frame 1:30



    A similar T Buck load would penetrate somewhat deeper than 12 inches.

    This is not to disparage existing larger buckshot loads, but to discuss the potential of a Buckshot load purpose designed for home defense use.

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    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 08:47:22 PM »
    Two questions:

    1. Why are we intentionally reducing the effectiveness of the shotgun load when there are already many rounds out there that don't over penetrate?

    2. If we want a round to perform with the minimal penetration as laid out by FBI gelatin testing, then why not just use a proven handgun round that has already passed such tests? If we effectively neuter the shotguns ability, I doubt that it'll be too much more effective than an appropriate calibre handgun anyways.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 12:23:15 AM »
    Well, even a reduced recoil load with smaller than #00 buckshot is still way more effective than a handgun bullet.  Eight pellets of #00 at 1000 + fps gives you eight .33 caliber lead balls impacting the target nearly simultaneously.  Roughly 435 grains vs 158 grains for a single bullet of the "FBI load" in the .38 Special for instance.  #1 buckshot is a .30 caliber pellet at the same velocity and usually yields 9 pellets out of a 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell.   Really not an apples to oranges comparison when stacked up against a handgun round or even two or three. 

    I personally have no problem with full power loads of buckshot in a home defense situation - in fact that is what I have loaded as I type this.

    Regardless of your chosen home defense round you need to realize that it will penetrate most interior walls of a dwelling and will at the very least end up in the next room if you miss your target.  Shot loads don't spread out much under ten yards even out of shorter home defense barrels so target recognition and accurate shooting are going to be necessary in any case. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Roper1911

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #7 on: March 26, 2017, 10:46:26 AM »
    Well, even a reduced recoil load with smaller than #00 buckshot is still way more effective than a handgun bullet.  Eight pellets of #00 at 1000 + fps gives you eight .33 caliber lead balls impacting the target nearly simultaneously.  Roughly 435 grains vs 158 grains for a single bullet of the "FBI load" in the .38 Special for instance.  #1 buckshot is a .30 caliber pellet at the same velocity and usually yields 9 pellets out of a 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell.   Really not an apples to oranges comparison when stacked up against a handgun round or even two or three. 

    I personally have no problem with full power loads of buckshot in a home defense situation - in fact that is what I have loaded as I type this.

    Regardless of your chosen home defense round you need to realize that it will penetrate most interior walls of a dwelling and will at the very least end up in the next room if you miss your target.  Shot loads don't spread out much under ten yards even out of shorter home defense barrels so target recognition and accurate shooting are going to be necessary in any case. 

    I run low recoil (1250fps) as well as reduced pellet loads. energy wise it translates into 6 instantaneous hits from the meanest .32 ACP loading on the market.
    I keep full power 15 pellet 00 on the side saddle. (I made a mistake when buying it...) which approximates to 15 rounds of subsonic 9mm energy wise.
    or- seeing as over penetration isn't an issue here in the boonies, I could use double ball loads for what's basically 2 20 gauge slugs.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #8 on: March 26, 2017, 11:19:11 AM »
    Well, even a reduced recoil load with smaller than #00 buckshot is still way more effective than a handgun bullet.  Eight pellets of #00 at 1000 + fps gives you eight .33 caliber lead balls impacting the target nearly simultaneously.  Roughly 435 grains vs 158 grains for a single bullet of the "FBI load" in the .38 Special for instance.  #1 buckshot is a .30 caliber pellet at the same velocity and usually yields 9 pellets out of a 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell.   Really not an apples to oranges comparison when stacked up against a handgun round or even two or three. 

    I personally have no problem with full power loads of buckshot in a home defense situation - in fact that is what I have loaded as I type this.

    Regardless of your chosen home defense round you need to realize that it will penetrate most interior walls of a dwelling and will at the very least end up in the next room if you miss your target.  Shot loads don't spread out much under ten yards even out of shorter home defense barrels so target recognition and accurate shooting are going to be necessary in any case.

    Perhaps comparing reduced shotshell to handgun was not the best, but my point still stands of not wanting to take any "half measures". Especially when we cannot have everything in terms of both deep and reliable penetration to stop the threat and yet zero barrier penetration so as not to go through walls.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #9 on: March 26, 2017, 11:50:12 AM »
    Perhaps comparing reduced shotshell to handgun was not the best, but my point still stands of not wanting to take any "half measures". Especially when we cannot have everything in terms of both deep and reliable penetration to stop the threat and yet zero barrier penetration so as not to go through walls.
    Fair enough, but the idea of zero barrier penetration - especially if you are talking about most interior walls and doors - is just pixie dust. 

    I think even most slingshots can put a steel ball bearing through those barriers.   There are anti-personnel rounds like the Glaser Safety Slugs that are specifically designed to not penetrate those barriers but all conventional munitions that I am aware of will usually go right through unless they impact at a shallow angle.   Even a non-lethal rubber buckshot round like those loaded by Fiocchi will go through a an interior wall at close range.  They don't have significant energy left when they do but unless you encounter framing, plumbing, wiring and insulation the drywall panels just don't have much resistance by themselves.   

    It is amazing how much damage even small children can do to the stuff with plastic children's toys and incidental bumps from toddler's kiddie cars and the like. 

    As a side note, if you have not fired a shotgun inside a building without hearing protection you really can't imagine the blast and concussion it generates.  Its not on the level of one of the LEO "flashbangs" but it is disorienting all the same.    Even more so than a handgun fired in the same situation. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #10 on: March 26, 2017, 12:12:05 PM »
    Fair enough, but the idea of zero barrier penetration - especially if you are talking about most interior walls and doors - is just pixie dust.

    Agreed and that is precisely what I was saying  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #11 on: March 26, 2017, 12:25:16 PM »
    Oh , Ok.    :facepalm
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2017, 12:44:59 PM »
     :rotfl

     :neener
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Mick

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2017, 07:55:51 PM »
    As a side note, if you have not fired a shotgun inside a building without hearing protection you really can't imagine the blast and concussion it generates.  Its not on the level of one of the LEO "flashbangs" but it is disorienting all the same.    Even more so than a handgun fired in the same situation. 

    It is fairly bad. I had a incident with a round being discharge with the barrel being about a 18" or so from my left ear. Dazed me for a second or so. Then really couldn't hear anything much over the ringing for a couple hours. It even left a ringing in my left ear for about 3 days. Wasn't sure if it would ever stop. 

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #14 on: April 10, 2017, 06:02:12 PM »
    I've let this thread "percolate" a while.    :hmm

    Let's see:

    Nothing is wrong with #4B, the .24"/20 grain pellets work well at "home defense distances"

    Same response for #1B and #2B.

    "Pixie dust?"  I don't know.  Is that something like #12 dust shot?  I have some 12 gauge factory rounds that contain 3400+ pellets in a one ounce load!  I have not tested that against sheetrock.   :-[  But, even launched at over 1200 fps, #12 shot will bounce off cardboard at 75 feet.

    "Double Ball" loads (.65" soft lead)?  I have not tested those either.  But my three pellet buckshot loads, (.60"/315 grain hard cast lead alloy), penetrated 29 inches into wet newsprint when fired from my humble 12 bore deer gun! A wee-bit much for indoor use - wouldn't you say?  Those little 00B pellets only went 5" into the same medium. 

    Now, I have been known to think outside the box.  However, this time my thoughts could be described as actually being inside the box! In an earlier time, Lead T Buckshot was quite popular for hunting the diminutive Brockett deer of Central and South America. Thus "T Buck" is considered buckshot.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, this small "letter" buckshot, would indeed constitute a superior indoor defensive load; at least in comparison to say the 1 ounce "Rabbit & Squirrel" load that might otherwise reside in the humble cottage smoothbore! 




    « Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:12:19 PM by RMc »
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
    <snip>
    "Double Ball" loads (.65" soft lead)?  I have not tested those either.  But my three pellet buckshot loads, (.60"/315 grain hard cast lead alloy), penetrated 29 inches into wet newsprint when fired from my humble 12 bore deer gun! A wee-bit much for indoor use - wouldn't you say?  </snip>


    when I shoot someone i want them to know- I really disapprove of their recalcitrant behavior.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 10:15:44 PM »
    when I shoot someone i want them to know- I really disapprove of their recalcitrant behavior.

    "...seeing as over penetration isn't an issue here in the boonies..."   

    In your situation the issue of excessive penetration is moot.   :coffee
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #17 on: April 11, 2017, 12:50:40 AM »
    Actually, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen lead T shot as a loaded round.   :hmm   I wouldn't want to be shot with anything out of a 12 gauge - especially if it was any more substantial than Cool Whip.   :cool
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #18 on: April 11, 2017, 06:33:41 AM »
    Actually, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen lead T shot as a loaded round.   :hmm   I wouldn't want to be shot with anything out of a 12 gauge - especially if it was any more substantial than Cool Whip.   :cool

    I agree.

    Can we get a link to some T shot and some pixie dust while we're at it? One sounds like the handle for a gang member and the other sounds like the product he'd be peddling  :neener. I feel we're getting pretty exotic with our shell choices here  ;) .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 08:37:47 AM »
    been reading through this one a couple of times now,  and what I keep sticking on, is comments made a few years back,  several times, by Massad Ayoob, about using home brew instead of a more legally defensible factory load such as local law enforcement issues.

    Theory being,  survive the deadly encounter, lose the legal aftermath. ie: your in prison, your savings account is gone and everyone else in the household is destitute and homeless.

    Your honor, my client, being the responsible homeowner, did his research, and loaded his home defense weapon with the same ammunition that our local police officers carry on the street.

    Your honor, this obviously disturbed individual was not satisfied with loads used and approved by local law enforcement or the FBI,  no, this danger to society made the decision to concoct a load that was even more dangerous, more deadly, hoping that he would get the chance to kill someone in a horrific manner.

     :banghead

    There are enough variables as is.  I'm not going to willingly hand a dirty prosecutor or high paid civil lawyer a golden rope with which to hang me.

    my opinion,  your mileage may vary. everyone has to make their own choices and gets to live with the consequences of those choices. 

     :coffee

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    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 09:22:01 PM »
    Frankly, two simple 1 ounce 12 and 20 gauge factory rounds loaded with "T" Buckshot* would fill a major gap in the available home defense ammunition marketplace.

    "T" Lead Buckshot:
    .200" diameter
    11.5 grains each
    38.0 pellets per ounce


    * Recognized as a Buckshot size by the Sporting Arms and Manufacturers' Institute, as well as by commercial suppliers of lead buckshot pellets.

    Chief,

    As you may note from the original post, this discussion turned around filling a gap in factory rounds specifically designed for home defense while limiting over penetration.

    The number of lead shot/buckshot size choices have been severely cut back over time, leaving todays shotgunner without any experiential context on how the now missing shot sizes actually perform.  .
    « Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 09:41:12 PM by RMc »
    Alabama

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 09:33:11 PM »
    I've let this thread "percolate" a while.    :hmm

    Let's see:

    Nothing is wrong with #4B, the .24"/20 grain pellets work well at "home defense distances"

    Same response for #1B and #2B.

    "Pixie dust?"  I don't know.  Is that something like #12 dust shot?  I have some Rio 12 gauge factory rounds that contain some 3300 pellets in a one ounce load!  I have not tested that against sheetrock.   :-[  But, even launched at over 1200 fps, #12 shot will bounce off cardboard at 75 feet.

    "Double Ball" loads (.65" soft lead)?  I have not tested those either.  But my three pellet buckshot loads, (.60"/315 grain hard cast lead alloy), penetrated 29 inches into wet newsprint when fired from my humble 12 bore deer gun! A wee-bit much for indoor use - wouldn't you say?  Those little 00B pellets only went 5" into the same medium. 

    Now, I have been known to think outside the box.  However, this time my thoughts could be described as actually being inside the box! In an earlier time, Lead T Buckshot was quite popular for hunting the diminutive Brockett deer of Central and South America. Thus "T Buck" is considered buckshot.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, this small "letter" buckshot, would indeed constitute a superior indoor defensive load; at least in comparison to say the 1 ounce "Rabbit & Squirrel" load that might otherwise reside in the humble cottage smoothbore! 





    I agree.

    Can we get a link to some T shot and some pixie dust while we're at it? One sounds like the handle for a gang member and the other sounds like the product he'd be peddling  :neener. I feel we're getting pretty exotic with our shell choices here  ;) .

    Rio actually loaded a 1 ounce #12 shot load that was availabe in the U.S. just a few years back. 
    For context, #12 shot is currently loaded in .22 LR Ratshot loads.

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/ammo-12-gauge-rio-top-sporting-12-shot-2-3-4-1oz-load-box-of-25-rounds-amm-811.do

    Many lead shot sizes not currently available in commercially loaded ammunition can be found for sale to the handloader here:

    http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Chilled-Lead-Shot-12-13mm-10_bag/productinfo/02612/

    Other lead buckshot pellet sizes are also available:

    http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Buckshot-Loading-Manual-4th-ed/productinfo/00MBUCK/

    Other parallel Buckshot size designations have been part of the American scene as late as the 1970s.

    http://wethearmed.com/shotguns/'western'-buckshot-sizes-not-what-you-think!/

    One of my favorite "small pellet" buckshot sizes for use in common 12 gauge plastic wads, can be easily cast at home with this mold:

    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/1/LEE-310-6C

                                                                         :coffee
    « Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 10:02:36 PM by RMc »
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    Chief45

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #22 on: April 12, 2017, 05:37:49 PM »
    I understand.  but also keep in mind, I'm a firm believer in O'Brian's corollary to Murphy's Law.   which states that Murphy was an optimist.





    Chief,

    As you may note from the original post, this discussion turned around filling a gap in factory rounds specifically designed for home defense while limiting over penetration.

    The number of lead shot/buckshot size choices have been severely cut back over time, leaving todays shotgunner without any experiential context on how the now missing shot sizes actually perform.  .
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    First Shirt

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #23 on: April 12, 2017, 09:52:58 PM »
    It's fairly easy to find #4 Buckshot in 20 gauge, which is the default home-defense load here at Rancho Imperfecto, and since I don't load shotshells, that makes life a lot simpler. And yes, I know all the arguments against using handloads for home and self defense purposes.  I'm still gonna use the handloads that I KNOW work in my home- and self-defense handguns.  They can only prosecute me if I win, right?
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #24 on: April 13, 2017, 02:08:39 AM »
    MTK20[quote
     ...I feel we're getting pretty exotic with our shell choices here  ;) .
    [/quote]

    Well, I didn't bring up Pixie Dust and double ball loads!   ::)

    Alabama

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