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Author Topic: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?  (Read 4105 times)

booksmart

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Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2017, 11:58:13 AM »
I concur.

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #26 on: March 08, 2017, 02:22:01 PM »
    This is part of why I wear LVL4 ceramic plates instead of just soft stuff. That, and everyone and his brother has an M4, and if I can snag a few cases of M855A1, so can they...
    Gecko45, is that you?   :hmm
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    MTK20

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #27 on: March 08, 2017, 03:04:23 PM »
    Gecko45, is that you?   :hmm


    That user handle sounds familiar. Which one is he again?  :hmm
    Texas
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    Unobtanium

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #28 on: March 08, 2017, 04:57:54 PM »
    Gecko45, is that you?   :hmm
    Gecko uses tape to secure his plates. I prefer Velocity Systems take on the slick carrier.
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #29 on: March 08, 2017, 05:02:13 PM »
    No worries  ;).

    You might not want to take my advice on armour. I'm a poor college student and I am one of those very one's who had to scrimp and scrounge in order to save up for 1k of cheap Wolf 7.62X39. In fact, I still do not have my plates purchased that I want, but I've had my eyes on them for... Goodness, years now. I like the AR 500 plates because my research has shown that ceramic degrades over time. Not only this, steel can stand to be dropped. When it comes to wearing the stuff, I've heard there is no comparison between ceramic and steel, that ceramic is in every way superior to steel. However, steel seems to be superior when it comes to storage, and I reckon I'll leave my plates in storage more than I'll be wearing them and fighting off the zombie hordes.

    Not to mention that ceramic is more expensive than steel.

    So that is my very limited knowledge and opinion on which body armour to get.

    I went ceramic because I got in on some overrun for the socom deal a few years back. If I were doing it now and didn't have the hookup, I'd probably go with coated ar500 from one of the better purveyors of such. It may not stop m855a1, but m855a1 I guess is still more rare on the street than not. It just makes me nervous and I'm glad to have ceramic because of it.
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #30 on: March 08, 2017, 08:25:20 PM »
    I went ceramic because I got in on some overrun for the socom deal a few years back. If I were doing it now and didn't have the hookup, I'd probably go with coated ar500 from one of the better purveyors of such. It may not stop m855a1, but m855a1 I guess is still more rare on the street than not. It just makes me nervous and I'm glad to have ceramic because of it.

    standard level III will stop 855A1 past 15-20 yards, AR500 armors level III+ will stop M855A1 at almost point blank ranges. III+ also stops 5.56 blacktip AP and 7.62 black tips at @2800fps.

    Funnily enough, a M193 out of a 24 inch barrel will punch through both at close enough ranges. *but* thats a bullet moving 300-400FPS faster then the rated limit for non-AP 5.56.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
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    Unobtanium

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 02:13:15 AM »
    standard level III will stop 855A1 past 15-20 yards, AR500 armors level III+ will stop M855A1 at almost point blank ranges. III+ also stops 5.56 blacktip AP and 7.62 black tips at @2800fps.

    Funnily enough, a M193 out of a 24 inch barrel will punch through both at close enough ranges. *but* thats a bullet moving 300-400FPS faster then the rated limit for non-AP 5.56.

    M855A1 is clocking 3050fps out of my 16" gun. I have not clocked it from a 20" rifle.

    This company does not rate level 3+ to stop M995 as you state.
    http://www.att-tactical.com/att_ballistics_rifle-plates.html

    M855A1 is just a tick under M995 on the "penetrative" scale, and it will Swiss-cheese steel that M855 legacy, and  M193 won't touch.
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #32 on: March 09, 2017, 10:15:28 PM »
    level III+ isn't actually an NIJ recognized armor rating. it just means that it preforms better then III but not as good as IV. AR500 armor's level III+ is .26 inch AR680.

    I quoted the speeds wrong- he states here it's rated for 7.62 AP at 3100fps. AR500 level III+
    they show it defeating .30-06 black tip with a hybrid soft armor backer and .300 winmag at 4 yards in different videos.

    I have seen AR500's level III+ defeat M995 from a 14.5" barrel personally. as well as 7.62 blacktip. as long as it's <3100fps. it should stop it no problem.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #33 on: March 10, 2017, 12:24:51 AM »
    level III+ isn't actually an NIJ recognized armor rating. it just means that it preforms better then III but not as good as IV. AR500 armor's level III+ is .26 inch AR680.

    I quoted the speeds wrong- he states here it's rated for 7.62 AP at 3100fps. AR500 level III+
    they show it defeating .30-06 black tip with a hybrid soft armor backer and .300 winmag at 4 yards in different videos.

    I have seen AR500's level III+ defeat M995 from a 14.5" barrel personally. as well as 7.62 blacktip. as long as it's <3100fps. it should stop it no problem.

    AR500 Level 3+ AR680 plates are not protection against M855A1 from a 16" or longer barrel.

    Like I said, I chose ceramic for a reason. I wanted something that was effective against my own load-out, because my presumption is that if I am carrying it, so could someone else.
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #34 on: March 10, 2017, 08:31:31 AM »
    AR500 Level 3+ AR680 plates are not protection against M855A1 from a 16" or longer barrel.

    Like I said, I chose ceramic for a reason. I wanted something that was effective against my own load-out, because my presumption is that if I am carrying it, so could someone else.
    Good point. I am relying heavily on the fact that 855a1 is still super rare. Most people will be using carbines, and loubob next door isn't going to be shooting at me with his .338
    Also- its defeating M995 at 3100 fps if I understand.
    Level III+ is good enough for me.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #35 on: March 10, 2017, 06:55:44 PM »
    Good point. I am relying heavily on the fact that 855a1 is still super rare. Most people will be using carbines, and loubob next door isn't going to be shooting at me with his .338
    Also- its defeating M995 at 3100 fps if I understand.
    Level III+ is good enough for me.

    I have not seen it hit with M995, but if it's stopping M995, I am pretty shocked that M855A1 is cutting through it like butter, at least at across the room distances. That round impresses me more and more every day, except the lot I had is not very accurate, even if the velocity is RIDICULOUSLY consistent. (like 20-30fps ES on 10 rounds)
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 08:03:34 PM »
    Push anything fast enough and it'll go through any armor plate. Everything I've seen indicates m855a1 closely parallels the performance of m995. Under ideal circumstances for the bullets, they will punch clean through a level 3 plus plate. Under ideal circumstances for the plate, ar500 level 3 plus can defeat a 30.06 black tip.
    Considering how unlikely ideal circumstances are, I'm going to say that an unbacked level 3 plus plate is good for most threats in the 5.56 and 7.62 ranges.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #37 on: March 10, 2017, 11:44:22 PM »
    I figured I'd back up my claims of M855A1 failing to penetrate AR500 armor's III+ plates with a few videos:



    Failed to penetrate with a 16", (shot off camera) penetrates with 22" admittedly on a pre-wrecked plate. but out of a 22" and the bullet is moving 150fps faster then the maximum rated velocity.

    Defeating M2 AP with a hybrid soft armor backer.


    defeating 7.62x39 AP at 2 yards:



    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    Unobtanium

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #38 on: March 11, 2017, 07:24:55 PM »
    I figured  I'd back up my assertion, as well.
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #39 on: March 11, 2017, 09:10:54 PM »
    I figured  I'd back up my assertion, as well.


    that's an armorwear level III+ plate .19 inch thick tempered AR680. not an AR500 armor III+ plate, .26 tempered AR680. Level III+ is not an industry standard, it is a manufacturers term used to describe a plate that is superior to a level III plate. but cannot stop M2 AP.
    AR500's base actual AR500 level III plates are technically level III+, their level III+ plates are hands down the toughest steel armor on the market.

    It's actually in the video description of that one:
    Quote
    Published on Sep 27, 2015
    <snip>Please note this plate is not rated for M855A1 (no armor that I am aware of is rated for this round) but it IS rated for M855 and M193.

    I showed in this video that this plate will not stop M193 from a 22" barrel at ~10 yards. I have one more steel body armor plate tougher than this one, subscribe and you will see that video posted soon! </snip>

    clearly pointing to this one:
    Quote
    Published on Oct 31, 2015
    The wait is over! This has easily been the most requested video lately, after the M855A1 punched through Level III AR500 armor, and Level III+ AR680 armor, everyone (including me) wanted to see it go up against Level III+ AR500 armor.

    NOTE: This 22" barrel produces velocities VERY similar if not identical to a 20" AR. <snip>

    which is the second video that I posted in my previous post.

    AR500 armor brand level III+ plates will stop an M855A1 from a 16" barrel. I doubt that it would stop a M855A1 from an 18" barrel though. and it will not stop M80A1 EPR 7.62 NATO. but that stuff is faster and meaner then M61 AP, which the plate is rated to stop. (further study has showed that the site, not the video is correct. the III+ plate is rated Vs AP to 2800, and ball to 3100.)


    basically, I'm screwed against rifles but good against carbines

    again, Jim-bob with his .270 solid copper 110 grain hunting bullets booking it at 3500fps will glide through my level III+ plates like tissue. your ceramics will stop anything short of a .50 bmg, but the steel level III+ will stop more rounds in it's rated range, take a ton more abuse kicking around in the truck, take falls, blunt force trauma, and such much better then any ceramic plate.
    and for my usage case, base use durability is more important then ballistic rating.
    and I can get a full four plate kit and carrier for $400, which is about what just a two plate set of level IV with no carrier costs.
    If I could get level IV plates for Level III+ prices, you bet I'd be rocking ceramics.

    (mods might want to split this to gear and accessories)
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    coelacanth

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #40 on: March 11, 2017, 10:21:19 PM »
    Interesting discussion, though - wherever it ends up.   :thumbup1
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    Unobtanium

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #41 on: March 12, 2017, 09:55:14 AM »
    that's an armorwear level III+ plate .19 inch thick tempered AR680. not an AR500 armor III+ plate, .26 tempered AR680. Level III+ is not an industry standard, it is a manufacturers term used to describe a plate that is superior to a level III plate. but cannot stop M2 AP.
    AR500's base actual AR500 level III plates are technically level III+, their level III+ plates are hands down the toughest steel armor on the market.

    It's actually in the video description of that one:
    clearly pointing to this one:
    which is the second video that I posted in my previous post.

    AR500 armor brand level III+ plates will stop an M855A1 from a 16" barrel. I doubt that it would stop a M855A1 from an 18" barrel though. and it will not stop M80A1 EPR 7.62 NATO. but that stuff is faster and meaner then M61 AP, which the plate is rated to stop. (further study has showed that the site, not the video is correct. the III+ plate is rated Vs AP to 2800, and ball to 3100.)


    basically, I'm screwed against rifles but good against carbines

    again, Jim-bob with his .270 solid copper 110 grain hunting bullets booking it at 3500fps will glide through my level III+ plates like tissue. your ceramics will stop anything short of a .50 bmg, but the steel level III+ will stop more rounds in it's rated range, take a ton more abuse kicking around in the truck, take falls, blunt force trauma, and such much better then any ceramic plate.
    and for my usage case, base use durability is more important then ballistic rating.
    and I can get a full four plate kit and carrier for $400, which is about what just a two plate set of level IV with no carrier costs.
    If I could get level IV plates for Level III+ prices, you bet I'd be rocking ceramics.

    (mods might want to split this to gear and accessories)

    That is super complicated, but I am tracking. I just went with some level 4 Stand Alone plates by Velocity, and a Mayflower PC, and the whole thing weighs 15# and as you say, should be fine against most shoulder-fired threats, within reason.
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #42 on: March 12, 2017, 11:45:45 AM »
    mine will be about 20 before mags. because side plates.
    considering I'm going to be training in this thing, at around 30lbs loaded, I'm going to *really* enjoy my cardio.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #43 on: March 26, 2017, 08:10:06 PM »
    We use dyneema plates at work and i have a personal set as well. I'd rather be a faster moving target than a slow, ponderous one. It covers enough of a range of rounds that I'm comfortable with it.

    Dyneema Hard Armor Sapi Plates are often the choice of many law Enforcement officers because of the weight difference between ceramic hard armor plates.

    Weight 3.3 lbs. each
    Used in conjunction w/ LevelIII-A bullet proof vest for out standing protection

    Dyneema Plate Ballistic Level III Protection:
    7.62 FMJ, .30 carbine, 5.56FMJ, Grenade Shrapnel

    As was noted earlier, the slug strike on a soft vest would be a huge trauma to the torso. What's called "back panel deformation" is significant and would still result in busted ribs, sternum and massive internal damage. I'd feel confident that a man taking a hit to his soft vest would be combat ineffective from that point on. Then again that assuming he's not hopped up on pills, meth, heroin or a mix thereof. Or Platt and Mattix who autopsies found were running on just adrenaline and meanness during the infamous FBI Miami shootout. I cant help but wonder if slugs would have finished the fight much sooner. I carry three 00 Buck (Federal Flight Control) as my primary shotgun load with three slugs and three more 00 Buck on the side saddle. Depending on the situation I can slide in a slug in the tube as I move toward the threat so it's first in the chamber. I do so love a shotgun.

    https://americanhandgunner.com/25-years-after-the-fbi-firefight-the-late-emerging/

    25 Years After The FBI Firefight
    By Massad Ayoob

    Situation:
    Eight FBI agents shoot it out with two well-armed murderers, in a legendary gun battle, which changed law enforcement weaponry and training alike.

    Lessons:
    Learning points that were instantly apparent, remain so … but a quarter century later and we’re still  learning more that can keep good people alive, when they face evil incarnate.

    April 11, 1986. A rolling stakeout squad of 14 FBI agents was trolling a section of the Miami, Fla. metroplex for armed robbers believed to have committed murder. Their MO: befriend shooters in local “rock pits” used for informal target shooting, then kill them for their guns and vehicles, which they would use to rob banks and armored cars. Their most recent victim had played dead and survived, and they were looking for his black Chevrolet Monte Carlo with known license plate. All the agents knew it was a long shot, but they were desperate enough to stop the perpetrators’ crime wave, and they were taking any opportunity possible.

    Against all odds, Special Agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove spotted the target vehicle. Four additional agents in 2-man unmarked cars were close enough to the scene to respond in time to help surround the suspect vehicle, as were two more agents, including the operation’s supervisor, each alone in an unmarked unit. Others on the assignment raced to get there, but only one extra car with two agents aboard would arrive in time to participate in the cataclysmically violent encounter to follow.

    It lasted for over 4 minutes. We’ll never know exactly how many shots were fired, for reasons we’ll discuss shortly. By the time the two bad guys were down and dead, two good guys were too. All but one of the surviving agents had been wounded, three of them sustaining permanent injuries.

    I was in Miami a few weeks after the shooting, teaching at the Metro-Dade (now Miami-Dade) Police Academy, and my friend Dr. Joe Davis was kind enough to lecture in my class about what was learned on his end. Dr. Davis was the legendary Chief Medical Examiner for the community then, and the supervisor of Dr. Jay Barnhart, who performed the actual autopsies in the case. I was able to review the FBI’s definitive LE-only training film on the incident, Firefight, as soon as it was made available. I reviewed the exhaustive newspaper reports and reconstructions contemporaneously.

    In 1989, I wrote an unprecedented double-length Ayoob Files on the incident and in 1992, another. By then, I had sat at the feet of Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, the hero of the incident, for hours; exhaustively reviewed the tape of Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeill’s debrief on the incident for the New Hampshire Police Standards and Training Academy; and attended a detailed debriefing by legendary detective Dave Rivers, who led the investigation for Metro-Dade Homicide. Subsequently, the FBI finally released its files on the incident, and in the years since, researchers such as John Hearne have studied the case in great depth. I had the opportunity to see Hearne’s reconstruction at the National Tactical Conference in May 2011.

    Though this incident is worthy of several books, only one has been written: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, by Dr. French Anderson, a gene therapy researcher by vocation, and a shooter, martial artist and supporter of police by avocation. Dr. Anderson paid out of his own pocket traveling to Miami to study the incident. His book — still in print from Paladin Press — is an excellent account of what happened in those terrible minutes, though he’s made clear several times, some of his conclusions are speculative. I took Dr. Anderson’s class on the incident and his reconstruction of it at an international conference of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers. And, with all of that, a quarter century later there still remain unanswered questions.

    A Brief Synopsis
    After Grogan and Dove spotted the stolen car and called in the others, John Hanlon (driving) and Ed Mireles in one car moved into support positions, along with McNeill and Special Agent Richard Manauzzi, each in their 1-man vehicles. McNeill paralleled the pursuit on an adjacent street and came toward a slow-speed pursuit, involving the other agents, passing the car and seeing perpetrators — later determined to be Edward Matix (driving) and Michael Platt — in the front passenger seat. Matix stared at him with a look of grim determination, and he observed Platt loading a long gun, a fact McNeill relayed by radio to the other agents.

    Grogan, a former head of the local FBI office’s SWAT team, said over the radio: “Felony car stop — Let’s do it!” Hanlon swept his vehicle adjacent to the stolen Monte Carlo and attempted to force it off the road. Manauzzi rammed the Monte Carlo from behind, spinning both the Hanlon/Mireles and the fugitives’ vehicles out of control. As the suspects’ car appeared to be back under control and fleeing, Manauzzi ran it completely off the road, jamming it between a car parked in the driveway of a house on its right and Manauzzi’s government car on the left.

    Platt, in the passenger seat of the Monte Carlo, brought up a Ruger Mini-14, stolen from his last rock pit victim, and opened fire past the face of his partner, driver Edward Matix, pouring .223 rounds into Manauzzi’s car. Wounded and having lost the service revolver he’d put in his lap in preparation for the fight, Manauzzi ran for cover and spent the rest of the encounter looking for a gun to fight with. SSA McNeill pulled in behind, drawing his 2.5″ S&W .357 Combat Magnum, and opened fire from the left-front of the Monte Carlo, as Platt raked his position with rifle fire. McNeill got off four shots before a .223 slug smashed his hand upward. McNeill brought the gun back down and emptied the rest of his revolver rounds, attempted to reload but couldn’t due to the flesh and blood from his shattered hand pouring into the gun and blocking cartridge insertion. By now though, he had wounded driver Matix.

    As this was happening, Hanlon and Mireles emerged from their car, which crashed across the street after the spinout. Hanlon had also drawn his primary .38 and put it under his thigh, but lost it in the impact of the crash. Mireles, who already had his Remington 870 out and ready, jumped from the car and ran to assist McNeill. Grogan pulled his and Dove’s vehicle in behind the trapped Monte Carlo; he emerged from the driver’s door and Dove from the passenger side, both opening fire with the S&W Model 459 9mm pistols each were issued as FBI SWAT. The car blocked Dove from Hanlon’s view, and seeing Grogan apparently alone in the street, firing at the suspects, Hanlon drew his backup S&W Model 36 from his ankle holster and ran across to help Grogan.

    Simultaneously, seeing McNeill alone shooting over an car hood, Mireles ran toward Grogan. Realizing the muzzle of his 870 would cross McNeill, Mireles raised it as he arrived there, and was hit with a .223 round on course to his heart, which instead was interdicted by his forearm. He fell to the ground and looked down to see what he later described as a left forearm “turned inside out.”

    In the moments that followed, many things were happening at once. Another FBI car, driven by Special Agent Gil Orrantia with SA Ron Risner on the passenger side, reached the scene and stopped across the street. Jerry Dove, firing his S&W 459 from behind the cover of his vehicle’s open door, hit Michael Platt as he was climbing out of the window of the jammed-in Monte Carlo. The bullet tore through Platt’s arm, into his chest (the 115-grain Winchester Silvertip 9mm pierced his lung and stopped just short of his heart). It is believed, as well, that a .38 round fired by Orrantia from the driver’s seat of the newly arrived car also hit Platt. At that point, the gunman disappeared from view.

    Strong sunlight from the far side of the gunfight scene combined with a cloud of dust thrown up on the roadside by the colliding cars created a visual curtain that shielded the now-running Platt from the view of the agents. Matix, still trapped in the car, deployed a pistol-gripped S&W Model 3000 shotgun and fired at least one shot at the agents.

    While McNeill was trying to make it to his car for his shotgun, Platt shot him in the neck. The .223 slug skidded down his spine into his liver, dropping him on his back, temporarily paralyzed and completely out of the fight. Platt with an emptied carbine, fired three shots from a Dan Wesson .357 he carried in a shoulder holster, then dropped the revolver to reload the .223. Hanlon reached the right rear bumper of one of the FBI cars and emptied his snubnose .38 at Matix. While attempting to reload, he was shot in the right hand and arm by Platt, causing him to lose his gun. He shouted that he’d been hit and tried to roll to cover, blood spurting from his injured limb. Platt ran at the car Grogan, Dove (who moved through the front seat of the FBI vehicle, emerging on the driver’s side) and the downed Hanlon were using for cover. His blood spurting across the white FBI vehicle, Platt fatally shot Grogan and Dove, and shot the downed Hanlon again.

    Advancing toward the driver’s door of that vehicle, Platt dropped the rifle, most likely hit at that point through the right forearm near the wrist, by a bullet from Ron Risner’s 9mm. By now, his partner Matix made his way to the right front door of the same vehicle. But Ed Mireles, crawling on his back, spotted them and fired his 870 1-handed, sending a blast of buckshot into Platt’s foot. Gaining a kneeling position and pumping fresh shells in by bracing the butt on the ground, working the slide right-handed and resting the fore-end on the bumper of McNeill’s car, Mireles sent four more rounds of 00-Magnum buckshot toward the suspects, injuring both, but not with neutralizing wounds. Platt pulled a S&W .357 from Matix’s shoulder holster and staggered from the vehicle, firing three shots toward the positions of Mireles and McNeill, none connecting, then tottered back into the car.

    At this point, with other agents in their field of fire, Orrantia and Risner could no longer shoot, but the nearer Mireles forced himself to his feet, drew his S&W 686, and lumbered toward the car, firing right-hand only with his shattered left arm hanging at his side. Five of his six shots connected solidly, two into one of the suspects and three into the other. Both slumped unconscious and dying and, at last, it was over.

    Unanswered Questions
    This “FBI Firefight” was to the 20th century what the OK Corral shootout was to the 19th: a high profile, complicated gunfight that possibly will never be perfectly reconstructed. Questions that remain include:
    What was the exact round count? We do not know. People at the scene reported onlookers picking up spent casings for souvenirs before responding LE could get the “Police Line/Do Not Cross” barriers up. Twenty spent casings that track to the extractor marks of Agent Dove’s 459 were found on the scene. But it was also reported confidently, an empty 14-round magazine of Dove’s was found on scene and another in his pistol, which was recovered at slidelock and hopelessly jammed by a bullet-strike from Platt’s .223, damaging the gun. Some have theorized he only had 10 rounds in each of his magazines. All who knew him, described Jerry Dove as a highly competent FBI agent. I doubt he would have downloaded his magazines that far for any reason.

    Though some of the FBI reports indicate Matix may have fired as many as three shotgun rounds, only one spent shell traceable to his 12-gauge was recovered at the scene by evidence technicians. Whether he fired more will remain open to speculation. Early reports indicated he was firing buckshot, but the recovered shell was from a #6 birdshot hull. Since none of Platt’s fire effectively neutralized or impaired any agents, it seems to be a moot point.

    Did McNeill fire .38 Special or .357 Magnum ammunition, from his personal Bureau approved .357? The crime scene reports released by FBI in the late 1990s indicate .38 Special +P casings were recovered from the position where McNeill attempted unsuccessfully to reload. However, the authoritative FBI reconstruction film Firefight from the 1980s, includes Mireles discussing the popping sounds of other agents’ .38s and 9mms as sounding distinct from the louder reports of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and what he called the psychologically devastating Ka-Booms of Platt’s .223 rifle. Thus, we have two authoritative artifacts from the FBI’s own study of the encounter at odds with one another. Did Mireles’ recollection simply differ from the evidence or did a FBI clerk type in the wrong headstamps from the evidence reports? Unless and until FBI addresses these opposite accounts, we simply won’t know.

    Where did McNeill hit Matix? Unquestionably, one of Gordon McNeill’s shots struck Matix in the chest/shoulder area early in the fight, severely impairing his ability to shoot. Many years later, Dr. Anderson came to agree with original official reports that a lead projectile in Matix’s head from Mireles’ buckshot, fired into the vehicle toward the end of the fight, had marks construable as rifling striations and, therefore, came from a lead .38 slug fired by McNeill. It is clear from Dr. Anderson’s book, however, he became friends with McNeill and sympathized with McNeill’s sense of having failed his brother agents. Clear review by the original analyst said it might be a fragment of a .38 slug, not that it was. To believe Matix was shot in the cranial vault by McNeill is to believe Matix performed conscious, purposeful physical activity in carrying gear from the stolen car to the FBI car he and Platt were attempting to escape in, all the while very wounded. I simply find that exceedingly hard to believe.
    Did killer Platt neutralize his own partner, Matix? Shortly after the shooting, chief medical examiner Joe Davis told me, Matix sustained a ruptured eardrum injury from Platt firing the .223 rifle 13 times directly in front of his face, as he attempted to kill Manauzzi and McNeill. McNeill, in the lecture given years after the shooting, said the same thing on record. Some have questioned this because the official autopsy report does not mention blood in the ear canals of the dead Matix. Conversely, some medical professionals have noted ruptured eardrums do not necessarily leave blood in the ear canals. This one is going to stay open to question.

    A Matter Of Courage
    Not until I interviewed John Hanlon in December 2010, did I learn Richard Manauzzi had risked his life ramming the Monte Carlo from behind because he saw Platt raising his rifle to shoot Hanlon and Mireles during the initial moments of the encounter. It was the impact that sent his revolver spinning out of reach, and it left him unable to shoot during the rest of the encounter. It saved the lives of two agents, including the one who ultimately ended the fight. That, in my opinion, is courage.
    Hanlon, 48, ran across the street to fight and pitted a 5-shot .38 snub against a powerful, long-magazine, semi-auto rifle. Courage. McNeill did the same with a snubnose six-shooter: courage. Dove and Grogan knew they had pistols against long guns when they engaged to protect the public: courage, which ultimately cost them their lives. Orrantia and Risner drove into the fight pitting their handguns against a rifle, both shooting the evil rifleman; Risner almost certainly firing the shot that smashed Platt’s gunhand and stopped the killing: courage. And Ed Mireles, shooting them 1-handed with his shotgun and finishing the evil bastards 1-handed with his revolver, his arm blown away, charging toward their guns — courage!

    Only in 2010, did I learn from John Hanlon that while shots were still being fired, arriving Metro-Dade deputy Rick Frye ran through the live battlefield to assist Hanlon. Courage!

    Lessons
    The ability to fire and reload with only one hand was reinforced as a lesson by Hanlon, McNeill and Mireles. The need for handguns that fire more than five or six rounds was reinforced too. After this incident, Mireles switched to a SIG P220 .45, McNeill to a SIG P226 9mm and Hanlon acquired a Glock. This incident provided impetus for LE nationwide to switch to autos.

    The .223 auto rifle in the hands of Platt was a terribly effective force multiplier, and today’s cops have .223 patrol rifles, in large part, because of the lessons written in blood on April 11, 1986. The current, almost universal adoption of handgun ammo that can penetrate at least 12″ in ballistic gelatin — which might have ended Platt’s life, saving the lives of Dove and Grogan — is possibly the best known lesson to come from this terrible incident — but not necessarily the most important. Cops are now taught better on how to take fugitive vehicles off the road, which has been a life-saving lesson, as well.

    I’d like to thank Dr. Joe Davis, Ed Mireles, Dr. French Anderson, Dave Rivers, the late Gordon McNeill, John Hanlon (whose late 2010 narrative of his memory of the incident is available on a ProArms Podcast interview, downloadable at proarmspodcast.com/2011/01/10/065-an-interview-with-retired-fbi-agent-john-hanlon-on-the-1986-fbi-firefight-in-miami/), John Hearne, FBI and Metro-Dade personnel who cannot be named here, along with the many others who made possible this review of the tragedy of 4/11/86 and the lessons that still resonate today.

    « Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 08:31:56 PM by sarge712 »
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    MTK20

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #44 on: March 26, 2017, 08:35:30 PM »
    We use dyneema plates at work and i have a personal set as well. I'd rather be a faster moving target than a slow, ponderous one. It covers enough of a range of rounds that I'm comfortable with it.

    Dyneema Hard Armor Sapi Plates are often the choice of many law Enforcement officers because of the weight difference between ceramic hard armor plates.

    Weight 3.3 lbs. each
    Used in conjunction w/ LevelIII-A bullet proof vest for out standing protection

    Dyneema Plate Ballistic Level III Protection:
    7.62 FMJ, .30 carbine, 5.56FMJ, Grenade Shrapnel

    As was noted earlier, the slug strike on a soft vest would be a huge trauma to the torso. What's called "back panel deformation" is significant and would still result in busted ribs, sternum and massive internal damage. I'd feel confident that a man taking a hit to his soft vest would be combat ineffective from that point on. Then again that assuming he's not hopped up on pills, meth, heroin or a mix thereof. Or Platt and Mattix who autopsies found were running on just adrenaline and meanness during the infamous FBI Miami shootout. I cant help but wonder if slugs would have finished the fight much sooner. I carry three 00 Buck (Federal Flight Control) as my primary shotgun load with three slugs and three more 00 Buck on the side saddle. Depending on the situation I can slide in a slug in the tube as I move toward the threat so it's first in the chamber. I do so love a shotgun.

    https://americanhandgunner.com/25-years-after-the-fbi-firefight-the-late-emerging/

    25 Years After The FBI Firefight
    By Massad Ayoob

    Situation:
    Eight FBI agents shoot it out with two well-armed murderers, in a legendary gun battle, which changed law enforcement weaponry and training alike.

    Lessons:
    Learning points that were instantly apparent, remain so … but a quarter century later and we’re still  learning more that can keep good people alive, when they face evil incarnate.

    April 11, 1986. A rolling stakeout squad of 14 FBI agents was trolling a section of the Miami, Fla. metroplex for armed robbers believed to have committed murder. Their MO: befriend shooters in local “rock pits” used for informal target shooting, then kill them for their guns and vehicles, which they would use to rob banks and armored cars. Their most recent victim had played dead and survived, and they were looking for his black Chevrolet Monte Carlo with known license plate. All the agents knew it was a long shot, but they were desperate enough to stop the perpetrators’ crime wave, and they were taking any opportunity possible.

    Against all odds, Special Agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove spotted the target vehicle. Four additional agents in 2-man unmarked cars were close enough to the scene to respond in time to help surround the suspect vehicle, as were two more agents, including the operation’s supervisor, each alone in an unmarked unit. Others on the assignment raced to get there, but only one extra car with two agents aboard would arrive in time to participate in the cataclysmically violent encounter to follow.

    It lasted for over 4 minutes. We’ll never know exactly how many shots were fired, for reasons we’ll discuss shortly. By the time the two bad guys were down and dead, two good guys were too. All but one of the surviving agents had been wounded, three of them sustaining permanent injuries.

    I was in Miami a few weeks after the shooting, teaching at the Metro-Dade (now Miami-Dade) Police Academy, and my friend Dr. Joe Davis was kind enough to lecture in my class about what was learned on his end. Dr. Davis was the legendary Chief Medical Examiner for the community then, and the supervisor of Dr. Jay Barnhart, who performed the actual autopsies in the case. I was able to review the FBI’s definitive LE-only training film on the incident, Firefight, as soon as it was made available. I reviewed the exhaustive newspaper reports and reconstructions contemporaneously.

    In 1989, I wrote an unprecedented double-length Ayoob Files on the incident and in 1992, another. By then, I had sat at the feet of Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, the hero of the incident, for hours; exhaustively reviewed the tape of Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeill’s debrief on the incident for the New Hampshire Police Standards and Training Academy; and attended a detailed debriefing by legendary detective Dave Rivers, who led the investigation for Metro-Dade Homicide. Subsequently, the FBI finally released its files on the incident, and in the years since, researchers such as John Hearne have studied the case in great depth. I had the opportunity to see Hearne’s reconstruction at the National Tactical Conference in May 2011.

    Though this incident is worthy of several books, only one has been written: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, by Dr. French Anderson, a gene therapy researcher by vocation, and a shooter, martial artist and supporter of police by avocation. Dr. Anderson paid out of his own pocket traveling to Miami to study the incident. His book — still in print from Paladin Press — is an excellent account of what happened in those terrible minutes, though he’s made clear several times, some of his conclusions are speculative. I took Dr. Anderson’s class on the incident and his reconstruction of it at an international conference of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers. And, with all of that, a quarter century later there still remain unanswered questions.

    A Brief Synopsis
    After Grogan and Dove spotted the stolen car and called in the others, John Hanlon (driving) and Ed Mireles in one car moved into support positions, along with McNeill and Special Agent Richard Manauzzi, each in their 1-man vehicles. McNeill paralleled the pursuit on an adjacent street and came toward a slow-speed pursuit, involving the other agents, passing the car and seeing perpetrators — later determined to be Edward Matix (driving) and Michael Platt — in the front passenger seat. Matix stared at him with a look of grim determination, and he observed Platt loading a long gun, a fact McNeill relayed by radio to the other agents.

    Grogan, a former head of the local FBI office’s SWAT team, said over the radio: “Felony car stop — Let’s do it!” Hanlon swept his vehicle adjacent to the stolen Monte Carlo and attempted to force it off the road. Manauzzi rammed the Monte Carlo from behind, spinning both the Hanlon/Mireles and the fugitives’ vehicles out of control. As the suspects’ car appeared to be back under control and fleeing, Manauzzi ran it completely off the road, jamming it between a car parked in the driveway of a house on its right and Manauzzi’s government car on the left.

    Platt, in the passenger seat of the Monte Carlo, brought up a Ruger Mini-14, stolen from his last rock pit victim, and opened fire past the face of his partner, driver Edward Matix, pouring .223 rounds into Manauzzi’s car. Wounded and having lost the service revolver he’d put in his lap in preparation for the fight, Manauzzi ran for cover and spent the rest of the encounter looking for a gun to fight with. SSA McNeill pulled in behind, drawing his 2.5″ S&W .357 Combat Magnum, and opened fire from the left-front of the Monte Carlo, as Platt raked his position with rifle fire. McNeill got off four shots before a .223 slug smashed his hand upward. McNeill brought the gun back down and emptied the rest of his revolver rounds, attempted to reload but couldn’t due to the flesh and blood from his shattered hand pouring into the gun and blocking cartridge insertion. By now though, he had wounded driver Matix.

    As this was happening, Hanlon and Mireles emerged from their car, which crashed across the street after the spinout. Hanlon had also drawn his primary .38 and put it under his thigh, but lost it in the impact of the crash. Mireles, who already had his Remington 870 out and ready, jumped from the car and ran to assist McNeill. Grogan pulled his and Dove’s vehicle in behind the trapped Monte Carlo; he emerged from the driver’s door and Dove from the passenger side, both opening fire with the S&W Model 459 9mm pistols each were issued as FBI SWAT. The car blocked Dove from Hanlon’s view, and seeing Grogan apparently alone in the street, firing at the suspects, Hanlon drew his backup S&W Model 36 from his ankle holster and ran across to help Grogan.

    Simultaneously, seeing McNeill alone shooting over an car hood, Mireles ran toward Grogan. Realizing the muzzle of his 870 would cross McNeill, Mireles raised it as he arrived there, and was hit with a .223 round on course to his heart, which instead was interdicted by his forearm. He fell to the ground and looked down to see what he later described as a left forearm “turned inside out.”

    In the moments that followed, many things were happening at once. Another FBI car, driven by Special Agent Gil Orrantia with SA Ron Risner on the passenger side, reached the scene and stopped across the street. Jerry Dove, firing his S&W 459 from behind the cover of his vehicle’s open door, hit Michael Platt as he was climbing out of the window of the jammed-in Monte Carlo. The bullet tore through Platt’s arm, into his chest (the 115-grain Winchester Silvertip 9mm pierced his lung and stopped just short of his heart). It is believed, as well, that a .38 round fired by Orrantia from the driver’s seat of the newly arrived car also hit Platt. At that point, the gunman disappeared from view.

    Strong sunlight from the far side of the gunfight scene combined with a cloud of dust thrown up on the roadside by the colliding cars created a visual curtain that shielded the now-running Platt from the view of the agents. Matix, still trapped in the car, deployed a pistol-gripped S&W Model 3000 shotgun and fired at least one shot at the agents.

    While McNeill was trying to make it to his car for his shotgun, Platt shot him in the neck. The .223 slug skidded down his spine into his liver, dropping him on his back, temporarily paralyzed and completely out of the fight. Platt with an emptied carbine, fired three shots from a Dan Wesson .357 he carried in a shoulder holster, then dropped the revolver to reload the .223. Hanlon reached the right rear bumper of one of the FBI cars and emptied his snubnose .38 at Matix. While attempting to reload, he was shot in the right hand and arm by Platt, causing him to lose his gun. He shouted that he’d been hit and tried to roll to cover, blood spurting from his injured limb. Platt ran at the car Grogan, Dove (who moved through the front seat of the FBI vehicle, emerging on the driver’s side) and the downed Hanlon were using for cover. His blood spurting across the white FBI vehicle, Platt fatally shot Grogan and Dove, and shot the downed Hanlon again.

    Advancing toward the driver’s door of that vehicle, Platt dropped the rifle, most likely hit at that point through the right forearm near the wrist, by a bullet from Ron Risner’s 9mm. By now, his partner Matix made his way to the right front door of the same vehicle. But Ed Mireles, crawling on his back, spotted them and fired his 870 1-handed, sending a blast of buckshot into Platt’s foot. Gaining a kneeling position and pumping fresh shells in by bracing the butt on the ground, working the slide right-handed and resting the fore-end on the bumper of McNeill’s car, Mireles sent four more rounds of 00-Magnum buckshot toward the suspects, injuring both, but not with neutralizing wounds. Platt pulled a S&W .357 from Matix’s shoulder holster and staggered from the vehicle, firing three shots toward the positions of Mireles and McNeill, none connecting, then tottered back into the car.

    At this point, with other agents in their field of fire, Orrantia and Risner could no longer shoot, but the nearer Mireles forced himself to his feet, drew his S&W 686, and lumbered toward the car, firing right-hand only with his shattered left arm hanging at his side. Five of his six shots connected solidly, two into one of the suspects and three into the other. Both slumped unconscious and dying and, at last, it was over.

    Unanswered Questions
    This “FBI Firefight” was to the 20th century what the OK Corral shootout was to the 19th: a high profile, complicated gunfight that possibly will never be perfectly reconstructed. Questions that remain include:
    What was the exact round count? We do not know. People at the scene reported onlookers picking up spent casings for souvenirs before responding LE could get the “Police Line/Do Not Cross” barriers up. Twenty spent casings that track to the extractor marks of Agent Dove’s 459 were found on the scene. But it was also reported confidently, an empty 14-round magazine of Dove’s was found on scene and another in his pistol, which was recovered at slidelock and hopelessly jammed by a bullet-strike from Platt’s .223, damaging the gun. Some have theorized he only had 10 rounds in each of his magazines. All who knew him, described Jerry Dove as a highly competent FBI agent. I doubt he would have downloaded his magazines that far for any reason.

    Though some of the FBI reports indicate Matix may have fired as many as three shotgun rounds, only one spent shell traceable to his 12-gauge was recovered at the scene by evidence technicians. Whether he fired more will remain open to speculation. Early reports indicated he was firing buckshot, but the recovered shell was from a #6 birdshot hull. Since none of Platt’s fire effectively neutralized or impaired any agents, it seems to be a moot point.

    Did McNeill fire .38 Special or .357 Magnum ammunition, from his personal Bureau approved .357? The crime scene reports released by FBI in the late 1990s indicate .38 Special +P casings were recovered from the position where McNeill attempted unsuccessfully to reload. However, the authoritative FBI reconstruction film Firefight from the 1980s, includes Mireles discussing the popping sounds of other agents’ .38s and 9mms as sounding distinct from the louder reports of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and what he called the psychologically devastating Ka-Booms of Platt’s .223 rifle. Thus, we have two authoritative artifacts from the FBI’s own study of the encounter at odds with one another. Did Mireles’ recollection simply differ from the evidence or did a FBI clerk type in the wrong headstamps from the evidence reports? Unless and until FBI addresses these opposite accounts, we simply won’t know.

    Where did McNeill hit Matix? Unquestionably, one of Gordon McNeill’s shots struck Matix in the chest/shoulder area early in the fight, severely impairing his ability to shoot. Many years later, Dr. Anderson came to agree with original official reports that a lead projectile in Matix’s head from Mireles’ buckshot, fired into the vehicle toward the end of the fight, had marks construable as rifling striations and, therefore, came from a lead .38 slug fired by McNeill. It is clear from Dr. Anderson’s book, however, he became friends with McNeill and sympathized with McNeill’s sense of having failed his brother agents. Clear review by the original analyst said it might be a fragment of a .38 slug, not that it was. To believe Matix was shot in the cranial vault by McNeill is to believe Matix performed conscious, purposeful physical activity in carrying gear from the stolen car to the FBI car he and Platt were attempting to escape in, all the while very wounded. I simply find that exceedingly hard to believe.
    Did killer Platt neutralize his own partner, Matix? Shortly after the shooting, chief medical examiner Joe Davis told me, Matix sustained a ruptured eardrum injury from Platt firing the .223 rifle 13 times directly in front of his face, as he attempted to kill Manauzzi and McNeill. McNeill, in the lecture given years after the shooting, said the same thing on record. Some have questioned this because the official autopsy report does not mention blood in the ear canals of the dead Matix. Conversely, some medical professionals have noted ruptured eardrums do not necessarily leave blood in the ear canals. This one is going to stay open to question.

    A Matter Of Courage
    Not until I interviewed John Hanlon in December 2010, did I learn Richard Manauzzi had risked his life ramming the Monte Carlo from behind because he saw Platt raising his rifle to shoot Hanlon and Mireles during the initial moments of the encounter. It was the impact that sent his revolver spinning out of reach, and it left him unable to shoot during the rest of the encounter. It saved the lives of two agents, including the one who ultimately ended the fight. That, in my opinion, is courage.
    Hanlon, 48, ran across the street to fight and pitted a 5-shot .38 snub against a powerful, long-magazine, semi-auto rifle. Courage. McNeill did the same with a snubnose six-shooter: courage. Dove and Grogan knew they had pistols against long guns when they engaged to protect the public: courage, which ultimately cost them their lives. Orrantia and Risner drove into the fight pitting their handguns against a rifle, both shooting the evil rifleman; Risner almost certainly firing the shot that smashed Platt’s gunhand and stopped the killing: courage. And Ed Mireles, shooting them 1-handed with his shotgun and finishing the evil bastards 1-handed with his revolver, his arm blown away, charging toward their guns — courage!

    Only in 2010, did I learn from John Hanlon that while shots were still being fired, arriving Metro-Dade deputy Rick Frye ran through the live battlefield to assist Hanlon. Courage!

    Lessons
    The ability to fire and reload with only one hand was reinforced as a lesson by Hanlon, McNeill and Mireles. The need for handguns that fire more than five or six rounds was reinforced too. After this incident, Mireles switched to a SIG P220 .45, McNeill to a SIG P226 9mm and Hanlon acquired a Glock. This incident provided impetus for LE nationwide to switch to autos.

    The .223 auto rifle in the hands of Platt was a terribly effective force multiplier, and today’s cops have .223 patrol rifles, in large part, because of the lessons written in blood on April 11, 1986. The current, almost universal adoption of handgun ammo that can penetrate at least 12″ in ballistic gelatin — which might have ended Platt’s life, saving the lives of Dove and Grogan — is possibly the best known lesson to come from this terrible incident — but not necessarily the most important. Cops are now taught better on how to take fugitive vehicles off the road, which has been a life-saving lesson, as well.

    I’d like to thank Dr. Joe Davis, Ed Mireles, Dr. French Anderson, Dave Rivers, the late Gordon McNeill, John Hanlon (whose late 2010 narrative of his memory of the incident is available on a ProArms Podcast interview, downloadable at proarmspodcast.com/2011/01/10/065-an-interview-with-retired-fbi-agent-john-hanlon-on-the-1986-fbi-firefight-in-miami/), John Hearne, FBI and Metro-Dade personnel who cannot be named here, along with the many others who made possible this review of the tragedy of 4/11/86 and the lessons that still resonate today.


    Can you link me to the plates y'all use? Preferably a vendor that will sell to a cake eating civilian.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Roper1911

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #45 on: March 26, 2017, 11:06:08 PM »


    Can you link me to the plates y'all use? Preferably a vendor that will sell to a cake eating civilian.

    Dyneema is UHMWPE if i'm right. it's the lightest rifle armor on the market, but you'll want to run trauma pads/level IIIa kevlar/steel plates behind it because it has some *serious* backface deformation. also- it's stupid expensive and degrades if you let it get too hot. so don't leave it in your car.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    sarge712

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #46 on: March 27, 2017, 09:24:03 PM »
    Dyneema is UHMWPE if i'm right. it's the lightest rifle armor on the market, but you'll want to run trauma pads/level IIIa kevlar/steel plates behind it because it has some *serious* backface deformation. also- it's stupid expensive and degrades if you let it get too hot. so don't leave it in your car.

    Yes we run level IIIA panels behind them. I did not know that about the heat in a car though. Thank you.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Roper1911

    • resident shotgun maniac
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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #47 on: March 27, 2017, 09:41:33 PM »
    Yes we run level IIIA panels behind them. I did not know that about the heat in a car though. Thank you.
    if the plate reaches 200f it's ruined. but hit 170-180f and it'll start to denature into HDPE. it needs several hours of soak time to ruin a plate at those temperatures. if you're in the south, on a hot day the interior of a car, especially a dark colored car can hit 172 in about an hour.

    if you're in arizona/texas in the sun, your plate would bake into milkjugs in about two hours.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

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    Unobtanium

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #48 on: March 28, 2017, 05:17:15 PM »
    This is why steel plates are so popular, along with price. "Keep the rust off of it" is pretty much it, in the way of care. Ceramic is in the middle of the weight/price spectrum, and near the top of the "protection" spectrum. Dyneema is a specialized tool for professionals who have a narrowly defined use, IMO
    Arkansas

    RMc

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    Re: Do Rifled Slugs Spin from a smoothbore?
    « Reply #49 on: April 09, 2017, 07:15:14 PM »
    So, I take it all agree that conventional Foster type slugs do not rotate to any sufficient degree to influence accuracy.    :coffee
    Alabama

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