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Author Topic: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--  (Read 41564 times)

RMc

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2012, 01:46:00 PM »
It appears the primary problem with any attempt at commercial full bore hard cast slugs are those shooters who never read the warnings about not using them in smoothbore barrels!  So many smoothbore slug guns have broad manufacturing tolerances, tight spots at the magazine ring point and some choke at the muzzle. 

I suspect many of the latest attempts at heavy weight slugs are focused on sabot designs is to protect the manufacturer from the unread firing "Rifled Barrel Only" loads in smoothbore and even in tightly choked smoothbores.

Perhaps some discussion on the relationship between sabot thickness and projectile caliber as a "safety margin" would shed some light on this problem in ammo marketing for the smoothbore and rifled shotgun alike.
Alabama

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    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #51 on: June 07, 2012, 03:01:41 AM »
     And to realize real hard slugs in smooth won't seal good.
    For sabot thickness, Greg's 16ga slugs work in 12ga wadcups.
    The US-S slug is .629 in its sabot, works ok. To get a good
    bite in rifled I still think you can have too much plastic,
    that is why we are favoring 58 cal over 50 cal in sabots.

    Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
    in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
    58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
    to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
    for better accuracy. Hope they  get built for us this summer.
    We are working on it.




    Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
    thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
    load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
    great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
    in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
    guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




    Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
    they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
    others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
    and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
    the accuracy.




    On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
    case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
    I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.




    RMc

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 11:03:07 AM »
    And to realize real hard slugs in smooth won't seal good.

     That is what the gas seal in the wad column is for. 
    Alabama

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #53 on: June 25, 2012, 12:21:28 AM »
    Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

    Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
    The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
    36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
    butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

    Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
    in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
    This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
    More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
    For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
    deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
    heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
    Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

    I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
    down off center, or it might affect accuracy.  Here is picture of
    the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
    Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
    allow it to tip or go off center.



    Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded  69cal minie and
    700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
    50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



    Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
    stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed


    HiVelSword

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #54 on: June 29, 2012, 12:57:24 PM »
    Great work! And a good looking .585

    Keep it up!  :)
    To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

    "You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #55 on: July 11, 2012, 10:28:53 PM »
    With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
    barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
    in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
    5 for 5. Going  2000fps.
     
    Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
    10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
    A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
    58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
    And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
    Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
    done later this month and will be doing cases then.
    Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
    He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
    I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
    by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
    a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
    real good deal..

    He will ship whole bulk order to me.
    I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
    I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
    to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
     100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
    I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
    and get it to me and I send them on to him.
    I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
    the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
    Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
    money ready to go for over 700.
    Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #56 on: August 08, 2012, 04:41:03 AM »
    Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

    Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
    two ball load using  .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
    little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
    Used a fold crimp,  3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
    barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
    balls  285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

    Those 58 cal inside  Accutip sabots are really versatile.
    Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase,  lead,
    muzzleloading slugs,  2" at  30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
    seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

    Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
    and just did one in my longer 700HE.  Did little longer port and
    added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
    16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd  have a neat 16ga FH....Ed





    PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
    He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
    as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
    first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
    me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
    no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great  bargain
    compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
    enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
    My contact---   gunowner at journey.com

    For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
    send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
     Right now can't afford  export costs to send cases back out of  US...


    .

    coelacanth

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #57 on: August 08, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »
    THAT is sweet looking old 16.   ;)    What Enfield action are you using - a No.1 ? 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 02:45:40 AM »
    We use P-14/M17 Enfields, they have the length and bolt
    diameter needed.

    Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
    58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



    Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
    in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
    bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
    the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
    The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
    measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



     Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
    just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
    In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
    my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
    8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
    Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

    Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
    rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
    Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
    have monoblocked in  585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
    partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
     also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
    action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





    And an ultimate big bore from history.ED




    coelacanth

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 11:36:59 AM »
    When loaded, is there a card or something buffering the two balls to prevent them from flattening when fired?
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #60 on: September 28, 2012, 11:43:49 PM »
    Usng our slower powder loads there doesn't have to be more cushion than
    what wads that are under the sabot. Our IMR 4759 powder loads gets
    to peak pressure 3 times slowerr than fast shotgun powder, this is easier on
    cases, sabots, seals, cushions, balls, and slugs.

    We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
    soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
    We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
    for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
    this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
    if your interested contact me.

     We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
    and Shotgun World are experimenting with  58cal Minie slugs and
     58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
     load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
    also  shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
    commander and use  felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
    470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
    That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put  in CBC below.

    Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
    super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
    Works  great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



    Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with  my 585HE in it. I put in a
    heavy barrel and different kind of extractor  Barrel is 28"..
    I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
    to show all the uses the case has.



    I found supply of super  long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
    It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
    I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done  in
    a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed






    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #61 on: October 29, 2012, 11:40:31 PM »
    I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
    has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
    in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
    how heavy barrel is yet.

    Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
    here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
    run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #62 on: November 03, 2012, 08:58:22 PM »
    Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
    It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
    with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.



    Good news, I got few samples of first production run of  my 585HE
    cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
    They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
    He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
    with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each  if you get in on the first
    shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
    so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
    Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

    This case can be used in different style guns.,
    Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
    Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
    Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
    is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
    we just got done.




     I tested 585HE  moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
    etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3.  Real
    tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
     fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
    ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

    First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
    and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
    Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
    what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
    they don't need a special holder.

    In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
    in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
    which were  real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
    The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners. 
    He supplies same base cases for 408  Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
    that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
    these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
    we get money built up for an order..Ed









    coelacanth

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #63 on: November 04, 2012, 02:13:04 AM »
    Good looking brass.  That 12 ga. O/U sounds great with the smooth bore and the rifle together - great idea.   :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #64 on: November 18, 2012, 11:40:50 PM »
    Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
    one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
    Nice looking gun.





    Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
    shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
    Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
    Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
    Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
    And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
    20ga,  with 20ga Commander  wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
    measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #65 on: December 06, 2012, 02:05:45 AM »
    First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
    on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

     

    Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
    12ga barrel for it..

     

    Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
    with putting on a thumbhole stock.

     

    Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
    make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
    five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
    if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #66 on: January 02, 2013, 04:38:23 AM »
    In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
    various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
    seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
    are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
    You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
    And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
    CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
    that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
    muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
    volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
    And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
    . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
    needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
    It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
     Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
    There is .548" Sharps style 2nd  in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
    54cal Great Plains in picture on left,  Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
    jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
    of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
    to find good simple combo.  Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
    CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over  2000 fps.
    Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
    Fits  in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





    Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
    singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
    and the Magtech 199 shown above.



    Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
    We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
    the 58cal  .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
    with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

     


    Avenger29

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #67 on: January 04, 2013, 10:27:17 PM »
    Yeah...you people are insane. Insane for thinking of this stuff, insane for actually creating it, and especially insane for actually firing it. Do ya'll have regularly scheduled appoints to have your retinas reattached?

    South Carolina
    I don't THINK I'll ever have to face down routers in the streets.

    I should hope not. Mobs of rogue woodworking tools would suck to repel.

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #68 on: January 14, 2013, 03:14:12 AM »
    Oh we have guns weighted and ported and real thick pads
    so we don't get hurt... but for thinking of it all is maybe a little crazy...

    Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
    wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
    We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
    shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
    Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
     We also shrunk the skirt  of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
    in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
    12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
    SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
     bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



    I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
    case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
    on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
    the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
    unneeded front of the sear and  metal above it in the bottom, giving
    room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded  length. 



    Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs  in singleshots are going
    to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets  and use black powder
    and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
    Used 54cal,  60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
    and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
    As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
    card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
    There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
    stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

    Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
    was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.



    Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
    It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
    like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
     It is made the same way as RE-17  as far as how  the rate of burn
    deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
    cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
    heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
    peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
    BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
    And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed



    only1asterisk

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #69 on: January 14, 2013, 08:51:27 AM »
    Quote
    Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
    BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
    And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed


    What was velocity like?

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #70 on: January 31, 2013, 03:29:52 AM »
    Vel about 1700, as it is a slow powder.

    Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
    be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
    45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
    This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

    More info on the SPW sabots with  520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
    them. With  3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
    they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
    combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
    right is factory SPW.



    Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590"  in this
    12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
    Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
    That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of  epoxy holds the Minie slug
    in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
    short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
    Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





    Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
    barrel.  This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
    back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




    As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
    24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
    reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
    say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
    and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
    airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
    can put in a card over the powder and about  3/4 oz of shot and have a real
    speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put  card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #71 on: February 26, 2013, 01:00:35 PM »
    First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
    and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



    Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
    roundball with section  copper tube,  wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
    bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
    screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
    with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



    Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases,  showing how 3/4
    ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore  as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
    Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore  and the HB Minie
    slugs work at  short range and the shot will do at short range also going
    about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga  shotcup.



    Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
    and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
    the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #72 on: March 17, 2013, 12:33:24 AM »
    Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
    the 1887 WIN shown above. They are  2  5/8" long cases and we
    get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
    these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
    as 3' plastic crimped little long.



    Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
    10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
    VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.



    Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball  slug shown above.
    Use  tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
    a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
    in wads as opposed to fullbore.



    Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
    cases. Got the idea  from Bret In Minn that  could setup 585HE
    guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
    make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
    in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
    4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
    And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
    for 6000 ft lbs.  And one that long would have proportions like the
    newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts,  that it could be
    possibly be done,  using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
    Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.



    Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock  and light
    barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
    Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels.  650gr at 2500 is max of
    what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
    .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
    Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
     85% we only need  2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
    instead of  65,000...Ed





    coelacanth

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #73 on: March 17, 2013, 04:19:56 AM »
    Those heavyweight whisper loads bring new meaning to the old T. Roosevelt quote:  "Walk softly and carry a big stick.".     :thumbup1
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    hubel585

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    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
    « Reply #74 on: March 29, 2013, 04:40:17 AM »
    We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.



    The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier  this week. And we got a bunch
    of testing already for opening and sealing,  and some accuracy testing .440gr
    Minie bullet, measuring .575";  with OD of sabot with slug in it of  .737"  It is
    perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
    stayed  on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
     powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
    Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with  slower powders expanded
    only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
    We have big bunch of the sabots here now.




    All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
    With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
    Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling.  Most of the rifling grip is on the
    bottom half of sabot, which is why these and  Accutips are best as the bottom
    is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
    other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..



    The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did  not cut into the inside of the
    sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
    Good Accuracy - In the cold and  very windy day,  hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
    Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
    slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
    curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

    You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
    that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
    It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying  to get twice as many
    shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
    miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

    Get with me for sabots --   gunowner at journey.com   Ph-   1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included,  or $20 for 50 postage included,
    with a bonus  WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order,  5 with 50 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed




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