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Author Topic: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--  (Read 22766 times)

hubel585

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I posted a little info on the tri-ball thread, but don't want to hog it,
but yet we are group of experimenters want to pass on the years of
info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net.
My name is Ed Hubel and over the years I and others have worked to continue
development of the 12ga From Hell and other big bores, and have posted info
all around the net about our research and many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE  and 700HE wildcat cases.....

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. First case a brass case 3.85" long, made from BMG brass expanded
out to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on. Also we get turned cases
from Rocky Mtn Cart of that length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Although our long chamber
will shoot any of the shorter cases.

Here are pictures, the  first showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other various 12ga FH guns are next,1887 with heavy barrel,
Nef Ultra heavy barrel with length added, Sav 210 bolt gun with heavy barrel,
Nef 8ga made by boring out heavy barrel 10ga,A FBW falling block in my 585HE belted case.
 .And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga in break actions, and
my wildcat 585HE,700HE in bolt actions, and more..Next  picture is our big cartridges
from 2 bore on down, in order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH-  700HE--700H 3.25-  30-06.. 
The next picture is the 4bore falling block we built Our design. Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.
We also helped in getting the size built into the MRC PH action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in next  picture.Next picture is an 8bore single
shot bolt gun a guy on another forum built from scratch..Last is a 8ga falling block
we built on same design as our 4bore falling block...Ed













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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 10:22:04 PM »
The simple falling block of ours, and mounted in one piece stock
makes for strong guns and less expense building one.
First  is picture of the business end of our 4bore falling block.
We got the first Montana Rifle Co PH action, which is a big
action that is between the big CZs and Rugers, and BMG size actions.
2nd Picture is a MRC PH action with our 585 HSM case  in action in front,
and the back gun is MRC PH in our 700H 3.25" case.
Third picture is of the action from the bottom view.,Ed






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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 03:40:57 AM »
I applaud your ingenuity and creativity but I'm having a hard time imagining a practical use for such a thing.  An ounce of lead moving at 1200 fps will drop just about anything on the planet and I can do that with a standard 12 gauge.  A 20 gauge saboted slug from a rifled barrel is a pretty good analog for the venerable old 45/70 which is also no slouch in the smackdown department.  Seems to me the .50 BMG will routinely outperform any conceivable shotgun type of ammo and has the advantage of being readily obtainable if you have deep pockets.   :shrug    Thanks for the interesting post and the cool pics.   :thumbup1
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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 01:40:57 AM »
First we want more DG stopping power, and these ideas do it much cheaper
than BMG stuff and elephant guns costing more than a car.
And factory loads now are running 600gr to 1500, and
loght sabots to 2000. And now supplies are out there to do
all of this by reloading, saving some bucks.
Here are pictures, of the huge variety of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
First a 600 NE slug in in 12ga wadcup... 2nd The US-S slug
along with others.3rd a Jacketed 730gr and a hard cast, heat treated
600gr,  full bore slugs, 4th a sabot with hardcast .504"
diameter slug, 5th other sabots, 6th brass turned slugs, with a foster,
and there are many others.Ed












hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 11:56:55 PM »
Here are some pictures of our various cases, how they are made,
comparing sizes, showing them loaded, empty, and sectioned.

First is a bunch of our biggest ones. In order- 2bore, 4bore, 8ga, 10ga,
12ga FH , 700HE, 700H 3.25, with 30-06 for comparison.



2nd-- showing the process of making our 12ga FH  from BMG brass
by putting on a 12ga rim piece..



3rd- showing how we make our 700HE belted case from BMG brass
by putting on a belt them expanding case to 700cal.



4th- Showing our 700HE with 700 H 3.25 along with bullets.



5th- showing our 4bore case and the 20mm we make it from
and jacketed 4bore slugs..



6th-A regular brass 12ga case and our 12ga FH



7th-Center 585HE belted case and 700H 3.25, 458 for comparison.



8th- Our 700HE case, that was fired 25 times, sectioned to show
the strength and the lack of case stretching. Over half the loads were
full power, max loads.



9th- An 8ga plastic kiln case, sectioned to show its great strength.
I can fire these 4 times with fairly strong loads without sizing.



10th- A comparison of length for my 585HE and a 505 Gibbs,
showing that my super 585HE can fit in many guns that the
Gibbs goes into, like PH, Enfield, CZ550, Big Ruger 77,
as well as any falling block or break action, double, single, o/u.



11th- Our 700H 3.25, in a MRC PH, bolt action, the first one
from the factory, feeding from the single stack
magazine we built. Gun has thumbhole stock
and 700cal rifled barrel. Ed


hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 06:46:32 AM »
In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed








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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 03:09:27 PM »
I am shocked and amazed and impressed with this...
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Mutant Musket

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2011, 10:11:35 AM »
Oh sweet Laird.

I keep coming back to this.

This is fine work. Truly the result of skill and straight thinking. Honest bore diameter coupled to heretical pressures and velocity...

My hat is off to the men who worked these projects.
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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 02:02:39 AM »
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all  kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s  are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl  on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of  double 8ga elephant guns.Ed





 

Mutant Musket

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 08:27:42 AM »
It'd be great to get ahold of these slugs unloaded too.
http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Monolit28
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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 11:41:49 PM »
That is problem, a lot of nice slugs you can't
get separately to reload with.

You can see various 4bore, 8bore, etc shooting videos on Youtube.
Some of the guns will be nice old timers like the pictures.

And in the vein of old time gun actions,  of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

 The Model L,  I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed














hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 03:34:41 AM »
Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like  lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of  4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
 my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE   .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had  .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed






hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2011, 04:43:21 AM »
Here is picture of my 585HSM and some other cases.
It is made from reworked bmg brass, and case  3.6" long.
Got it in a PH in the 2nd picture. 3rd picture a supply
of 585 or 24 ga if you want, that are hard cast and
lubes and they take the real high sped ok...ED

 





Here is picture of Brett Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27"  Pacnor barrel,
oversize recoil pad, and he put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.
He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot to 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI sabot and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC brass cases...Ed



New super strong 12ga bolt gun is out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
receiver built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out a little
Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two  lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Ruger 77. ED
 

hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 07:31:23 PM »
Many are interested in 12ga FH set up in doubles.
Able to take higher pressures than thin shot barrels.
Like the pressures in NE cases that are put in doubles
that are similiar to big shot gun frames.
Rob on the AR Forum who's idea the 12GA FH originally was,
is doing one by putting heavy one on a large 10ga frame.
He is mono-blocking in heavy 12ga rifles barrels into the
breach section of the 10ga.He has to make and install ribs,
quarter rib, etc, so it will look like a big double rifle.
5th picture is of bolt action a guy made for big cases,
beautuful work and very strong.Ed











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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 11:40:39 PM »
More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

First picture is Rob's 50BMG size falling block, that was the
first gun that the 12ga FH case was chambered in.
It is a modern Borchardt and can take full rifle pressures.
With this gun Rob was able to get 1000gr 12ga solid
slug to 3000 fps. The 2nd gun to have this case was
my Savage 210 pictured earlier.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 700H 3.25 was put in.
It is and Enfield and gets 1000gr bullet 2100 fps.
Sixth picture is the first my 585HE was put into.












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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2011, 09:11:28 AM »
With that double, people would finally have the tool they need for dropping demonically possessed rhinos. And that's important.
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hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 01:52:50 AM »
If you wound one, you may have a devil on your hands.

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is  of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy  barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed






hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 11:29:59 PM »
Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal  and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

 

 

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 11:59:08 PM »
I love those old slug designs. 
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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 12:32:10 AM »
Ed,

What became of the 10ga to 8ga rebore project?

I was on board when it seemed like a going thing and haven't heard anything in a long time.



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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 09:14:13 AM »
Ever since I saw Appaloosa I've wanted that 8-gauge....

Still do.
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 11:44:12 PM »
Ever since I saw Appaloosa I've wanted that 8-gauge....

Still do.
Until you fire one.
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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 01:53:33 PM »
Until you fire one.

If it's worse than a .460 Weatherby then you're probably right. Either way it's not something I'd shoot a whole helluva lot. I'd be surprised if I shot more than a dozen rounds in one year.

It's more the "having" of it. Which is moot because I've got a million things I already can't afford ahead of it.
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 07:48:41 AM »
The 8 ga deal to bore out barrels, we had to let it go, as they wanted
to much up front for tooling, it would about doubled the cost.
But another guy out in AZ is working at trying to get iy going,
with a machinist friend to try to get set up to do it. May be ready
in a few months.

Recoil- we set up guns balanced and thick pads so they shoot easy.
To get balance, our barrels are heavy and we weight butt until
the gun is fairly balanced. On real big we port barrel and have
thumbhole stocks, which cuts recoil by a third or so.

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic/seal on the back
and that it shoots like a Brenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

 

hubel585

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Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga From Hell Shotgun/Rifles--585 & 700 HE Blasters--
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2011, 05:25:16 AM »
A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel,  little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the  front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose  slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

  

 


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