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Author Topic: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?  (Read 5125 times)

RSViper

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Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« on: July 05, 2011, 03:58:18 PM »
I've always liked the pump action. Easy to use, simple to make, fast shooting, light weight, and reliable. They can use box mags. I've never understood why the don't catch on much beyond .22 rifles, shotguns, and a few remington models. I mean, a 10 mm pump action that used glock mags would be a nice handy rifle wouldn't you think?

Is it that when you start looking at pump action, you just figure a semi-auto in the same thing would be better?


JesseL

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 04:21:37 PM »
Is it that when you start looking at pump action, you just figure a semi-auto in the same thing would be better?

Pretty much. A semi-auto isn't much more complex or expensive to make than a pump.

Most of the modern pump action rifles I've seen are essentially the product of politics (such as police departments wanting to avoid the martial looks of an AR), or restrictive laws (such as PA where AFAIK you still aren't allowed to hunt with an autoloader, or the UK where autoloaders are completely verboten)

Pretty much the same reasons straight pull bolt actions are so rare.
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Splodge Of Doom

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »
Actually, pump actions have been illegal here ever since Hungerford, and were banned in the same piece of legislation that took out our semi-autos.

Probably something to do with some actions being able to fire by just pumping the action while holding down the trigger.  :shrug

JesseL

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »
 :doh

You've still got the goofy lever action and straight pull ARs though, right?
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Splodge Of Doom

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 04:57:26 PM »
Yeah. And normal lever actions, too.

Oh, and semis and pumps in .22 and smaller.

FMJ

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 08:57:08 PM »
Wait, there are goofy AND normal lever actions there?  What's the goofy one look like?
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JesseL

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 09:03:05 PM »
Arizona


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FMJ

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 09:09:34 PM »
:vomit


The sad part is that the Mossberg plinkster AR is still uglier.
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Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 12:11:45 AM »
I'd rather have a pump-ation AR. :p
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Splodge Of Doom

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 06:23:05 AM »
One of the nicest guns I have ever held was an antique Winchester .22 pump action that's over a century old.

It still gets good use from one of the collectors at my rifle club.

It's tiny, so getting a good stance is a bit awkward, but I still love the thing to bits.

Precious Roy

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 02:40:10 AM »
I'd rather have a pump-ation AR. :p

A refugee from california had one of those back in the mid 90s and I got to mess with it.  No sir.  didn't like it.

The pump action remingtons like the 760 or 7600 or whatever were popular with a lot of guys who shot a lot of trap or did a lot of bird hunting with 870s.  My dad hunted with guys who swore by those guns.  Some were blazing quick with a pump too.

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RSViper

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 08:56:32 AM »
A refugee from california had one of those back in the mid 90s and I got to mess with it.  No sir.  didn't like it.

The pump action remingtons like the 760 or 7600 or whatever were popular with a lot of guys who shot a lot of trap or did a lot of bird hunting with 870s.  My dad hunted with guys who swore by those guns.  Some were blazing quick with a pump too.



I have a 7600 and it's a great rifle. Fast, light, and as reliable as an 870. Given the right aftermarket support they could be fun guns to accessorize. Here's what I'd change. Float the barrel and make a top rail system, offer threaded barrels, 10 round or more mags,  beef up the bolt and reciever for higher volume fire and heat dissapation, and improve accuracy.

There's a .223 version of this rifle that could take AR mags if I recall. I'd rather have an AR in 5.56, but chamber it in .308 and make it pmag compatible and I'd buy one tomorrow.

Langenator

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 09:32:17 AM »
I'd wager that they're not popular with the target shooting crowd because the pump action would be extremely awkward in most of the standard shooting positions - prone, sitting, kneeling - where the non-firing hand is supporting the weight of the rifle, and that weight is then resting on the elbow.  If you're all slinged up, working the action would be a major pain.

Semis and bolties don't have that issue.  (Yeah, you have to come off the sight with a bolt, but your basic position is still in place.)
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Precious Roy

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 01:38:07 AM »
I have a 7600 and it's a great rifle. Fast, light, and as reliable as an 870. Given the right aftermarket support they could be fun guns to accessorize. Here's what I'd change. Float the barrel and make a top rail system, offer threaded barrels, 10 round or more mags,  beef up the bolt and reciever for higher volume fire and heat dissapation, and improve accuracy.

There's a .223 version of this rifle that could take AR mags if I recall. I'd rather have an AR in 5.56, but chamber it in .308 and make it pmag compatible and I'd buy one tomorrow.

Every one I've ever shot had horrible triggers.  Heavy and mushy.  I think they still make 10 round mags for them.  I know a couple of guys who used them with pump action as well as the semi autos which were also pretty popular around here.  I think they took the same type of mag and had a lot of commonality with other parts.  They were either clear or smoke colored plastic mags.  I think eagle made them.

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 02:08:22 AM »
Took my first deer with a 7600 in 308, it was a beautiful gun
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cpaspr

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 11:43:27 AM »
Every one I've ever shot had horrible triggers.  Heavy and mushy.  I think they still make 10 round mags for them.  I know a couple of guys who used them with pump action as well as the semi autos which were also pretty popular around here.  I think they took the same type of mag and had a lot of commonality with other parts.  They were either clear or smoke colored plastic mags.  I think eagle made them.


Triple K makes a 10-rounder in steel for the .308-based short action rounds (like .243).  Not sure if they make one for the long action rounds like .30-06 and .270.   Here's where I found it:  http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG779-36.html

I don't know if "horrible" is a fair description of the trigger.   You can definitely feel the trigger moving though.  After shooting my Mauser with the Timney target trigger I looked into finding a replacement trigger for my 760.  I didn't find anything affordable.  Which makes some sense.  The 760/7600 is basically a "meat" gun.  It's not meant to be a target rifle.  

Took my first deer with a 7600 in 308, it was a beautiful gun


My first deer was with a .30-30 Model 94, but four of my last five were all with a 760, also in .308.


Back on the original topic, pump .22s are fun, and almost as quick to unload as semi-autos.

An inherent drawback to the pump design is that for most people, they can't maintain the rifle in the same position relative to their body/posture to chamber the next round.  Or at least maintain their sight picture.  When you run the pump slide, the gun is going to move around.  Bolt action guns, not so much.  Semi-autos, not a concern.

Also, inherent in the design (for center-fire rifles) is that the pump guns can't take as much pressure as bolt guns.  So a hot round that will shoot great in a bolt gun might blow up a pump gun.
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RSViper

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 08:58:19 AM »
Some good points. I've seen the 10 round mags fore the 760 and 7600 series, but I've heard they had some reliability problems. My dad's 760 .308 mags were interchangeable with my 7600 in .243 which makes sense since the cases are the same.

The trigger on my 7600 is heavy. I wouldn't call it mushy, but I did have dreams about that gun where I couldn't pull the trigger cleanly in my dream so subconsiously at least, I knew the trigger wasn't good.

I really think the pump in .22 is about the perfect plinking and hunting rifle. I also have a remington fieldmaster pump .22 and it is a prairie dog killer. Very reliable too. I'd could shoot it almost as fast as my friend's 10/22 and I didn't have the fouling and jams he did. No recoil allowed you to keep your sight picture and not break your stance.

Would people buy a .308 carbine that was light, took pmags, had a flat top continuous rail, free float barrel and was a pump action if the price was under $700?


Precious Roy

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2011, 03:13:21 AM »
I also have a remington fieldmaster pump .22 and it is a prairie dog killer. Very reliable too. I'd could shoot it almost as fast as my friend's 10/22 and I didn't have the fouling and jams he did. No recoil allowed you to keep your sight picture and not break your stance.

One of those little remington fieldmaster pump .22s is what I grew up shooting as a kid.  Learned all the basics of shooting, hunting and fieldcraft with that rifle in my hands.  If ever have the spare money I really want to pick up a fieldmaster and speedmaster especially if I can get them in a higher grade.  Something with a little extra deep bluing, a bit of tasteful engraving and really nice glossy walnut wood.

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BoomieMCT

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2011, 02:59:02 PM »
I have a 7600 and it's a great rifle. Fast, light, and as reliable as an 870. Given the right aftermarket support they could be fun guns to accessorize. Here's what I'd change. Float the barrel and make a top rail system, offer threaded barrels, 10 round or more mags,  beef up the bolt and reciever for higher volume fire and heat dissapation, and improve accuracy.

There's a .223 version of this rifle that could take AR mags if I recall. I'd rather have an AR in 5.56, but chamber it in .308 and make it pmag compatible and I'd buy one tomorrow.

I thought the 7600 already had a floated barrel?  That's what Remington's website says anyway.  I have an older 760 in .35 Remington.  That barrel is not floated (still plenty accurate though).

Also, FWIW, the 760 has a pretty good trigger.

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 05:48:49 AM »
My Dad has a 760 (I think) in 30-06. The rifle was lightweight and the recoil was stout. IIRC it still had the hard butt plate last time I fired it. Nice rifle but it was one of those guns I shot to sight in and never really wanted to shoot it for fun. 
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RSViper

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 08:43:13 AM »
I thought the 7600 already had a floated barrel?  That's what Remington's website says anyway.  I have an older 760 in .35 Remington.  That barrel is not floated (still plenty accurate though).

Also, FWIW, the 760 has a pretty good trigger.

your right it does. I was describing what I'd do to make a pump gun with more tactical applications that could be used for hunting as well.

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2011, 01:33:36 AM »
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm

they might have discontinued it, but for a while i toyed with the notion of getting for a woods rifle.

akodo

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2011, 08:56:18 AM »
Can't forget the Colt Lightning!



I've always liked the pump rifle.  As a boy we had Winchester 61.


(not ours, just a random internet picture)

We called it 'sideways sally' because it would key-hole all the time.  It wasn't very accurate.  It's barrel was in such rough shape it just sounded different from all the other 22s, I figure it was letting a some gas pass around the bullet.

See, my Grandfather bought it used at a farm sale when he was a lad of 14 or so, in the middle of the great depression.  He would hunt jackrabbits with it.  (They used be as thick as locusts here, but were all but wiped out)  You'd get a few penny bounty from the government for every jack in addition to a the meat.  He'd hide the gun in the fields and go to any farm foreclosure sales.  Back then the rules of hospitality were such that even if your farm was bankrupt and the bankers were forcing you to sell off every possession you had, you were expected to feed your 'guests'...i.e. the people who would bid on your the bank's goods.  So the farm-wife would hand out bun sandwiches and glasses of water to all who were there.  Of course the idea was you'd only invited the people who were honest buyers, and those were the only ones who expected to get fed.  So Grandpa could hide his rifle and pretend he was there with plans to buy.  And sometimes he DID buy a tool or so that his Dad's farm needed, but if he had his rifle he'd have been chased off as simply a guy looking to get a free meal (which he was, but in reality that meant he'd skip the meal at home leaving more for his brothers and sisters.  Tough times for all parties involved make what is morally right and wrong not be so clear)

Anyways he'd buy the cheapest 22 cartridges he could find, by the handful not by the boxful.  This was often off-brand 22 short cartridges which had to be single-loaded as the'd not feed well out of the magazine.  There were frequently squib loads and when that happened he'd have to use a long piece of stiff wire to drive the bullet back out of the barrel by just tapping on it a few thousand times.  That's why the barrel is so rough.

In the 1910s and 20s it really seemed like pump action rifles were getting quite popular (along with more modern lever actions like the Savage 99) guns like the Remington 14 for the deer woods and PLENTY of pump action 22s.

I've always wondered if the depression years put some stigma on this design in the eyes of people for the next 20-30 years, and if that had anything to do with them fading away.

I used to say I'd love it if someone reintroduced the Lightning modernized up a bit, in 357 or 44 magnum.  Same basic gun just don't bother with the case-hardened finish and the metal butt plate, basically modernize it the way a lot of lever actions are.  

Some Israeli firm came out with the 'timberwolf' which I was really excited about but when I actually laid eyes on it I was not impressed.



oh well, maybe someday there will be another company who has a better eye for lines who can just take the basic lightning design and modernize it and charge about the same as Marlin does for their lever action rifles.

FMJ

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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2011, 09:48:38 PM »
I'm a fan of the Savage Model 29A, in .22LR...
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Re: Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2011, 12:48:42 PM »
I believe Col. Cooper wrote about a pump action .223 in South Africa that took standard magazines, a solution to their prohibition against civilians with semis.
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