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Author Topic: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific  (Read 3742 times)

tokugawa

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What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
« on: October 17, 2016, 12:57:53 am »
This thread-   https://wethearmed.com/buy-sell-or-trade-firearms-and-nfa-items/brand-new-ar-15-rifles-for-only-495-dollars/
 brought  some questions to mind, mostly about the definitions we use, almost like buzzwords.
 Instead of "quality" or "entry level", which are essentially completely meaningless general terms,
how about breaking this down into some definable criteria.

 What I want to know about a gun is this-

 Will it function as reliably as a top dollar unit? Are the parts inferior in metallurgy or design, and is it assembled correctly? 
 Will it break sooner than the fancy one? Same as above re. parts and assembly.
 Is it significantly less accurate?

 

 Or does all the Buzzword factor boil down to  differences in part finish, 1/2moa upgrade in accuracy, fancy doo-dads, triggers, sights, etc? 
 

 

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    Grant

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #1 on: October 17, 2016, 08:27:10 am »
     I consider entry level to mean:

      None CHF/Nitrided/CL barrels.  IE: plainejane 4150 chromemoly barrels.  Which work....but are definitely cheaper.  There's also a higher chance of an improperly drilled gas port.

       BCG that is only MPI rather than HPT/MPI, which leads to higher chances of failure.

       Generic type handguards that don't dissipate heat as well, or are lower quality aluminum that may strip screw holes.

        Less time spent on QC.   The company assumes to makes it money and reputation on replacing bad parts rather than catching them before they leave the floor.

       A good example is Radical Firearms, a good company, with pretty solid guns.....but does have a MUCH larger problem with malfing guns, poor fitting, wobbly parts,etc. than say Spikes tactical.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    StevenTing

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #2 on: October 17, 2016, 09:32:42 am »
    This is an interesting question.  I know a lot of it also comes down to experience that other people have had with a brand.  I think for certain parts, the difference between quality and entry-level is nil.

    For instance, on a Lower Parts Kit, is there really much difference from a $30 kit and an $80 kit?  Pins and Springs are pretty much universal.  Maybe the trigger components differ.  But if we start talking about a barrel, as Grant said, there are definitely differences in how they are made.

    I'm not an expert in this area but I'm willing to learn.
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    sqlbullet

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #3 on: October 17, 2016, 10:53:00 am »
    In the past I have used PSA for lower parts kits.  Recently I dropped to some cheaper stuff from Delta Team Tactical.  It works fine, but doesn't go together quite as smoothly.  Just little things.

    Roll pins are a bit harder to start, pivot and take-down pins are either a little tight or a little loose. Large components like a no-name buttstock might be a little heavier than a brand name.

    But overall, worth saving $15 in my mind.  And, here in Utah, I get Delta Team Tactical stuff next day usually.
    Utah

    ksuguy

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #4 on: October 17, 2016, 12:06:55 pm »
    I did notice a difference in the standard PSA trigger group compared to their EPT group.  Sometimes with the standard one, you get a gritty and uneven pull.   I decided to spend the extra on any future ones I get.
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    StevenTing

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #5 on: October 17, 2016, 02:04:06 pm »
    I did notice a difference in the standard PSA trigger group compared to their EPT group.  Sometimes with the standard one, you get a gritty and uneven pull.   I decided to spend the extra on any future ones I get.
    Now when I buy a LPK, I get one without the trigger or grip.  I figure that I'll add a fancy trigger into it and then get the grip that I want.  But for an entry-level firearm, what's include really isn't that bad considering you can spend $200+ on a new trigger.
    Utah

    ZeroTA

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2016, 03:44:00 pm »
    The biggest item that'll cause you grief is the barrel, and that's one of the biggest ways to save money too.

    To me, entry level doesn't mean "bad", it just means there's nothing fancy. Basic stock, forearm, sights, and LPK. All things you can upgrade. The market being what it is, there's no room for total garbage. And I've seen $500 DPMS carbines run all day, and $2000 customs go t___ up. Of course those aren't usually  factory builds, so there's the issue of tolerance stacking.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    ksuguy

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2016, 03:56:03 pm »
    Now when I buy a LPK, I get one without the trigger or grip.  I figure that I'll add a fancy trigger into it and then get the grip that I want.  But for an entry-level firearm, what's include really isn't that bad considering you can spend $200+ on a new trigger.

    The last ones I got, PSA had a daily deal with their EPT and a Magpul grip for $62 shipped which isn't bad.  They run that every week or two.  They also frequently have the whole lower kits with the EPT and a CTR or STR stock.

    This weekend I got a Geissele G2S trigger group to go with a Brownells kit I had.  DPMS has them on sale right now.  Still a little pricey at $120 shipped, but I am going to use it in the semi-custom 7mm-08 AR-10 I am building, so I wanted to go high end on so e of the stuff.
    Kansas

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2016, 07:40:35 pm »
    To me, when I use the term "Entry Level", it really has no bearing on QUALITY, just features.  It's a Starting Point.  Your Entry Point.
    To me, Entry Level is Basic/MilSpec, which also means lower cost.   And one company's Entry Level is probably at a different price point that another Company's.  So an Entry Level FNH AR is going to be a differently priced than a SIG or S&W Entry Level AR.   Higher Quality components used by one company will reflect on that final cost. 
    In the case of the OP's linked thread that Entry Level AR is just that, very basic, and very affordable, while being very MilSpec'ish. 
    Any "Good" Entry Level AR should be completely upgradable. 
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    steveracer

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #9 on: October 18, 2016, 01:30:22 am »
    ^^^ This!
    I think of "entry level" as the M-4 carbine I have sitting next to my other gear at work that I got from Crane, Indiana as part of a shipment of 8 M-4 carbines.
    It's 14.5", M-4 profile (obviously) and the lower was made by FN and has a 1/7 twist barrel. It's full auto or semi.
    That's "entry level" in that is has no options. A civilian version of that with a 16" barrel and no full-auto selection would be "entry level" equivalent.
    Then I can do whatever I feel I should do to make it "right" for me. (I would ditch the M-4 profile barrel first because it blows, but otherwise the same rifle)

    Mississippi556

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    Re: What is "quality? What is entry level? AR 15 specific
    « Reply #10 on: October 19, 2016, 11:23:18 pm »
    Now when I buy a LPK, I get one without the trigger or grip.  I figure that I'll add a fancy trigger into it and then get the grip that I want.  But for an entry-level firearm, what's include really isn't that bad considering you can spend $200+ on a new trigger.

    Exactly.  I just got a CMMG "Gun Builder" lpk for that reason.  $45.  Better quality for all the "little pieces" but without grip, trigger group and trigger guard. The omitted parts tend to be personal choices, so why buy what you will replace anyway or have left over from upgrading another AR?
    « Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 11:33:19 pm by Mississippi556 »
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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