Author Topic: Rugers BOLT action .357 rifle ? (Read 2968 times)

dot4x4 · « **on:** June 22, 2011, 09:34:10 PM »

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine77357/models.html

This doesn't really make much sense to me. Am I missing something here?

.357 can be used for taking game obviously but being a bolt action doesn't that slow down and defeat the primary purpose of using a pistol caliber rifle at "brush gun" distances? (Yes I know a bolt can be ran incredibly fast but this caliber in a lever action just makes so much more sense to me).

Why not just bring back the semi-auto and lever action .357 and .44 rifles of yester-year?

dot4x4 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2011, 09:37:57 PM »

Here is a link to an old auction with Ruger's 69/44 lever action just in case some people have no idea what I am talking about.

I always wanted one of these for a deer rifle in my area where 100 yards is a long shot.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/907208092/Guns/Rifles/Ruger-Rifles/M44-Carbine/RUGER_96_44_lever_action_Carbine_44_magnum.htm
edited to add.
heres a pic of Rugers .44 semi auto also.
http://gastatic.com/UserImages/4275/932457970/wm_948043.jpg

Grant · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2011, 09:40:15 PM »

They have their place....The 96 and 77's .44 mags are pretty danged scarce locally, one shows up, it sells for a premium.

That said, I wish ruger brought back their old semi auto in .357 and .44. Give the .44 magazines with over 4 round capacity and I'd be all over it. I'd still usually use the 4 round magazines, but I still WANT more

ksuguy · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2011, 09:51:48 PM »

I can see the appeal. I've thought about getting a revolver and a long gun to go with it, but I'm not crazy about lever actions. However, the 5 round rotary magazine on this is kind of lame.

dot4x4 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2011, 09:54:49 PM »

I just had a thought.. (Scary yes I know)...

Imagine if Ruger brought back the semi auto .44 but in a synthetic stock and stainless action and barrel.

That would be a great "pack all day" super light, weather "proof" rifle. Would be a nice handy rifle for hunting deer or protection from black bear with the right loads. Am I wrong in thinking that would be a right around 5 pound rifle? And would make an excellent ranch rifle for tossing in the truck.

Take that rotary magazine and extend it, like they recently did with the 10/22 magazines and it would be a great "city" rifle. Even if it was limited to 10 rounds I know I would buy one in a heart beat.

hi-power · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2011, 10:00:23 PM »

dot, they made (or advertised) the exact model you desrcibe in the last few years before it was discontinued. as far as weight goes the .44 bolt is 5.25, i imagine the semi would be closer to 6

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2011, 12:46:13 AM »

I think I actually like that. I'd top that with a simple Red Dot.

dot4x4 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2011, 12:50:03 AM »

George, any advantage over a levergun in the same caliber or liking it just because its different?

This gun honestly has me confused as to practical application. As a "hey look at this" plinking gun... I totally understand that lol.

THE NORSEMAN · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2011, 12:57:34 AM »

Quote

George, any advantage over a levergun in the same caliber or liking it just because its different?

Most likely you'll gain a little accuracy, and lose a little speed between shots in this situation.

As for it's usefulness as a hunting arm? A hard cast 180 doing 1800 out of a rifle barrel is a whole different critter than the same slug doing 1200 out of a 4-6 inch tube. Same with a toughly constructed 158, like Hornadys 158 XTPFP for example. And a 110 or 125 JHP on varmints out of this thing? SWEET.

dot4x4 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2011, 01:16:51 AM »

Yea I agree that a 357 or 44 out of a rifle is a whole different thing. I honestly didn't think of it in a Varmit capacity. But wouldn't a 223 have better range? 22-250 better range and performance? Then again in a very limited role... Say coyote killing at across meadow or thick brush and limited range it would be pretty damn good if you were not concerned with keeping a pretty pelt.

Stil seems to me that bringing back the leveraction (Which I would assume they still have existing tooling for) would have more utility without the added cost of the new tooling for the bolt action.

I know I seem curious about this. Its because honestly I don't know much about hunting. Years ago I hunted for white tail with a 44 lever action and that is the extent of my pistol caliber rifle experiance.

If nothing else... Just pretend I am channeling FMJ

and want to boost my post count and knowlege base

(Wait, he has more rifles than I do now....

)

THE NORSEMAN · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2011, 01:53:02 AM »

Bad dot. Bad.

Mostly it'll be a niche gun. I'd top it with a fixed 4-6X scope and work up some accurate loads for it myself. With iron sights and lever actions, I can mostly keep all my shots under a quarter at 50 yards, be they 3 or 50. Be nice to see how tight a bolt action can group at 100-150 with good glass and the presumably enhanced accuracy of the bolt action over the lever. There would still be plenty of energy at 150 yards. So having a lightweight accurate rifle that runs the same loads as your sidearm? A good idea. Especially after smaller deer species in brushy country. That extra 50 yards of useable accuracy can mean a lot more meat in the freezer.

Atlas8193 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2011, 02:23:05 PM »

I'll put this out here to be totally fair-I don't much care for Ruger. Dunno why

, just don't. Anyway-onto the meat of my post.

My dad owns one of the Deerfield .44mag carbines. He genuinely loves that thing. He was honestly peeved to find out Ruger canned the model. My dad's a practical shooter-he doesn't do the "black rifle" thing, tactical pistol thing, or...anything that shoots that I think is really neat.

My point being (in a round about way) is why DID Ruger can the Deerfield? I understand market vs production costs and all that but WHY do gun companies do this sort of thing? In support (perhaps ignorantly) I also cite the Colt Python.

HiVelSword · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2011, 03:15:03 PM »

Stainless w/black duracoat, .44 mag. 16" threaded barrel. Takes Desert Eagle magazines. Suppressor.

340 grains at 1,100 fps = 912 foot pounds.

Well that is if you can seat that long bullet back enough and still get enough powder in there to safely achieve that velocity. I don't know as I've yet to reload a single round of anything. But hey, it's sounds good!

Doug Wojtowicz · « **Reply #13 on:** June 23, 2011, 09:40:00 PM »

I'd stick with the lightest optics I could. Thing's 5.25 pounds, and short of a 6.5mm Creedmoore custom AR handgun, .357 and .44 Magnum are really popular and successful for long-distance steel target shooting at 200 yards.

.357's also fatter and much heavier than a .223, which makes it a little more "humane" for tagging a deer, I'd think.

note: The above about the .357 and .44 used for long distance comes from an OLD half-remembered article from either G&A or Peterson's Handguns from the past century.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2011, 10:34:29 PM »

Quote from: THE NORSEMAN on June 23, 2011, 12:57:34 AM

Most likely you'll gain a little accuracy, and lose a little speed between shots in this situation.

Actually probably not even that... in terms of Practical Accuracy - meaning what you are going to get with the gun in your hand shooting from standard shooting positions that do not involve a Bench, I don't think you are going to see much difference.

Any actual advantages? No. In fact, I think in most cases, the Lever Action still has the all the advantages. You are not giving up any practical accuracy, and speed between shots is a matter of training. But the biggest advantage the Lever has is that you can run it and feed it as you run and that means you can keep it in the fight and not have to stop to reload. And with a Lever, even if you do run dry, it's as fast as a shotgun to single feed - just like I teach in my tactical shotgun training. You can run a Lever like a Tactical Shotgun and stay in the fight. Where with a 5 shot magazine, your dumping that mag way too often. If it had a 20 round mag or something, that could be different.

JackCrow · « **Reply #15 on:** June 23, 2011, 11:35:59 PM »

Rugers are typically overbuilt, so I'm wondering what might be doable with .357 and .44 handloads in such a robust action.

Might be able to handle Contender rated loadings

Agreed about the capacity issue but most bolt action hunting rifles have 3 - 5 round capacities and that is what this model is based on so it's not surprising. It is however, why I didn't warm to the Ruger lever actions

dot4x4 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 23, 2011, 11:49:23 PM »

Thanks for all the replies guys. I guess my confusion was that when I think of pistol caliber rifles I immediately think of the practical (Don't want to say the "T" word)applications, and for a handy little brush gun. (Plus I just love lever guns).

I think in part its because as long as I am stuck in CA. I can think of no advantage a magazine gun like an AR or AK has over a lever action. For those that don't know we are limited to 10 round mags and have to have "bullet buttons". For the expense I just don't see anything an AR can do out to about 150 yards that a lever action cant do in 357 or 44. And the leveraction can be ran just like a shotgun like George said. Looking at it like that, here in CA. the AR just doesn't make sense except in the "I want it" part of the brain that we all love to spoil.

For us stuck here in CA. (Yes I am looking at moving soon) I am going to wait on getting an AR or AK until I am out of here and don't have to nueter my rifle.

JackCrow · « **Reply #17 on:** June 23, 2011, 11:57:55 PM »

Actually lever rifles are much more versitile and capable than most give them credit for.

Paco Kelly did much to push those bounderies,
http://www.leverguns.com/backkupfirstpage.htm
The site hasn't been updated in a number of years but there is alot of interesting info there.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #18 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:23:02 AM »

Quote from: JackCrow on June 23, 2011, 11:57:55 PM

Actually lever rifles are much more versitile and capable than most give them credit for.

Paco Kelly did much to push those bounderies,
http://www.leverguns.com/backkupfirstpage.htm
The site hasn't been updated in a number of years but there is alot of interesting info there.

No NO NO!!! I will not click that link!
I do NOT need the urge for a .35 Remington... again... No!
But his article on getting more accuracy out of a Lever is a good one. However he is going about it the hard way. Why free float? Harmonics. What can you to do minimize harmonics? Stiffen the barrel. Make it more ridged. That allows less effect from Harmonics. You can futz around with what Paco is talking about... or you can do it real easy. Cut down the barrel. A shorter barrel is a more ridged barrel. I took mine from 20 to 22 inches what ever it was, and had it cut down to 16.2 inches and recrowned with a Target Crown. My groups with good Federal or Hornady ammo shrunk from Minute of Pie to - and I kid you not - 1/2 an Inch. There was also trigger work done. Replaced the firing pin with a Titanium one, shimmed the hammer spring... And it worked. It worked very well. I lost velocity, but the increased precision was well worth it. Norseman witnessed effective shots at 200 and 300 yards with it. And a Cow Elk will witness that it still had plenty of Slaying Power.

dot4x4 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 24, 2011, 01:16:45 AM »

here is a link to the rifle that George is talking about.

http://65.48.65.168/Interviews/Marlin336CS.htm

Thought I would track that down for ya George. Man I have been reading your sight for so long... Is it sad that I have been reading the original since before you were working at Basin Sports?

Its still one of my favorite articles to read. I am think on picking up a 357 lever action and shortening it to 16". I will stay with a more normal color then "Ogre green" for the stock though

Evil Jim · « **Reply #20 on:** June 24, 2011, 09:38:06 AM »

I have to place my vote for the 16" lever gun.

Jim

akodo · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2011, 05:52:02 PM »

So if this has a rotary magazine, does that make it a revolver?

Okay, the deerfield semiauto 44 magnum ruger carbine actually was released sold poorly and was canceled...and then everyone remembered them so fondly that eventually Ruger introduced a 'new' version of the gun that supposedly worked better with different ammo pressure levels. They also introduced a lever action version.

Unfortunately, the time for a handy little carbine had basically passed when Ruger reintroduced the cartridge. The 30-30 lever actions weren't selling so good, everyone wanted a magnum, etc. The era of the 'practical' mid-range cartridge for whitetail deer was over when Ruger reintroduced the gun. Magumitis had us.

Ruger wasn't smart enough to do a dual-purpose rifle that would appeal to the home defense crowd, fun shooters, and deer hunters. All they had to do was introduce a magazine that held 8 to 10 rounds (15 would have been ideal) and they would have really been onto something...but they didn't.

Now, the Lever Action was mechanically superior to the 'old west' guns...but I guess the people who want lever actions want the TRADITIONAL lever actions, which is why designs similar to the Winchester 1894 stuck around but 'improved' models like the Winchester 1895 or even the 'ultra-modern' winchester 88 or savage 99 couldn't hold on. (and going back to the 'era of practical mid range cartridges for whitetail deer, you'd be hard pressed to be more 'practical' for hunting whitetails than a Savage 99 firing 250 savage)

This is why these two didn't survive.

I think the world is ready for a semiauto 44 magnum and/or 357 magnum provided it is priced a little below an AR, not ugly as sin, and has 10+ round capacity. Without those features those who want a PC-Assault-Weapon are just going to stick with their lever action versions.

This does lead me to an interesting thought. I have heard that many lever action 357s struggle to handle shorter 38 special loads. I wonder if by going to a bolt-gun you skip this problem.

THE NORSEMAN · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »

Quote

I have heard that many lever action 357s struggle to handle shorter 38 special loads. I wonder if by going to a bolt-gun you skip this problem.

Mostly this is an issue with 94 based actions. Those based on 92 actions fair much better. As for skipping it, I'd say it pretty much would given the difference in the feeding.

As for the rifle in question here- Give it a box magazine and make it with enough action length and chamber area in the barrel to accommodate a 357 maximum round, I'd be all over it.