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Author Topic: Rifle Fluting  (Read 6173 times)

StevenTing

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Rifle Fluting
« on: November 19, 2014, 02:37:05 pm »
Just read the following little bit about it.


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/18/rifle-barrels-what-the-pros-use/
"But an article written by Tom Beckstrand in the 2013 edition of SNIPER magazine summarizes some tests that Accuracy International performed to determine whether fluting a barrel affected accuracy. Here is an excerpt from that article:"

Quote
One design change that resulted from AI’s exhaustive accuracy testing and development of the PSR [Precision Sniper Rifle] is the removal of flutes from the barrels. Engineers at AI decided to isolate the barrel flutes to see what impact they had on accuracy. The engineers attached a laser to the rifle’s receiver, another to the barrel, and a third to the scope. All three dots were zeroed at the same point, then they started shooting the rifle. They discovered that, no matter which fluted barrel they used, the dots would diverge as the barrel heated. The dots from the devices mounted to the scope and the receiver would stay in place, but the barrel’s device would manifest a point-of-impact (POI) shift. The POI shift from the warming barrel greatly diminished when they used barrels without flutes.

Engineers determined that the flutes never heated evenly, causing the POI shift. I hope the results of this test gain wide circulation through the sniper and long-range shooting communities to help eliminate some of the ignorance that surrounds the perceived advantages of barrel flutes. Flutes are great for shaving weight, but this is the first test I’ve heard that provided empirical data detailing what happens when the barrel is fluted. This should be the death of the “they cool a barrel faster, so they’re more accurate” argument, listed among flutes’ virtues. Our goal is and should always be to mitigate the effects of heat; fluting exacerbates it.

I was always under the assumption that Flutes were good but didn't realize that it could cause the exact opposite of what you wanted.
Utah

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    JesseL

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 02:43:25 pm »
    For thoroughness they should have run the same test with a round, unfluted barrel of the same weight as their fluted barrel.
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 03:20:31 pm »
    But that would change other things, would it not?  Namely stiffness.  Don't the fluted and unfluted barrels of the same diameter have identical (or nearly so) stiffness characteristics?  You can match barrel weight, or barrel stiffness.  I would think the stiffness would be more critical for this test than weight.

    Unless you mean they should have done the test with barrels of the same weight, in addition to, barrels of the same stiffness.
    Oregon

    JesseL

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 03:27:23 pm »
    I did mean in addition to.

    Fluting does reduce the stiffness of a barrel. Anyone who says otherwise has been kidding themselves.

    The only credible advantage claimed of fluting is that for a given weight a fluted barrel is supposed to be stiffer than an unfluted barrel.
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 03:29:55 pm »
    Okay.  That makes sense.  I was under the impression that for sniper rifles, weight is not a primary concern.  A concern, yes.  But not primary.  Accuracy and repeatability are paramount.
    Oregon

    StevenTing

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #5 on: November 19, 2014, 03:58:28 pm »
    Every time I see the specs on a fluted barrel, the weight savings is only like 4-8 ounces.  Doesn't see like a big deal to me unless your rifle has to weigh under a certain weight.
    Utah

    JesseL

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 04:34:24 pm »
    A quarter to a half pound is a big enough deal for people who are hunting while backpacking or going after mountain goats. I never do either of those things, but I do like to carry a rifle while hiking so less weight is nice.

    But, none of those situations is likely to require a significant volume of fire either, so as long as the barrel will put a cold bore shot in the same place each time it's good enough. How it warps as it heats up is not a concern, so a very lightweight contour is probably fine.

    Obviously in competition nobody is going to care much about carrying a few extra ounces from their trunk to the firing line, unless there are specific rules regarding weight.


    So where would fluting be an advantage? What situation requires someone to carry a rifle a lot and requires them to do a lot of shooting with it in a short period of time? I don't know the answer.  :shrug
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 04:47:32 pm »
    I actually was going to add this to my previous comment, but I got delayed, and the last two replies came in first, so I'll make it a new response instead.


    My .30-06 has a 26 inch, heavy barrel.  I think.  It might be a medium barrel.  Anyway, the whole package, with scope, is around 8#.  But it's very accurate.  Heavy for a hunting rifle?  Maybe.  I don't have any idea.  Heavy for a sniper rifle?  Probably light actually.  The point being that I don't think weight is really that big of a concern for snipers.
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 04:53:49 pm »

    So where would fluting be an advantage? What situation requires someone to carry a rifle a lot and requires them to do a lot of shooting with it in a short period of time? I don't know the answer.  :shrug


    Well, duh!  Where the cool factor is required!  Cause fluted is cool.  And spiral fluted is radically cool!   :neener

    Humor aside, in theory, I think the fluting is intended to give lighter weight compared to a non-fluted barrel of the same diameter, while at the same time keeping the barrel stiffer than a similar weight pencil barrel.  In theory.  This article seems to show that the flutings do not help accuracy as the barrel heats up.
    Oregon

    StevenTing

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 06:21:21 pm »
    Well, duh!  Where the cool factor is required!  Cause fluted is cool.  And spiral fluted is radically cool!   :neener

    Humor aside, in theory, I think the fluting is intended to give lighter weight compared to a non-fluted barrel of the same diameter, while at the same time keeping the barrel stiffer than a similar weight pencil barrel.  In theory.  This article seems to show that the flutings do not help accuracy as the barrel heats up.

    Spiral Fluted?  You need to check out these options.  I didn't know this was possibility until earlier today.

    http://twistedbarrel.com/designs/

    Utah

    RetroGrouch

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 01:18:51 am »
    Fluting would probably work as the theory if the flutes were held to very tight dimensional tolerances in terms of depth, width, length and orientation around the barrel.  And then stress relieved, maybe cryogenically.  But it would be a lot of work for questionable returns.
    Arizona

    Mamba1-0

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 02:04:23 pm »
    LWRC offers spiral fluting on their rifles. They tout it as a weight-reduction measure. I don't think I've seen them say it improves accuracy.

    https://www.lwrci.com/c-83-individual-carbine.aspx
    Missouri

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 03:46:06 pm »
    I don't question the reliability of the conclusion in the report.  I would, however, like to see the full written test protocol and the data.

    If it is uneven heat dissipation due to fluting that causes the shift in POI, how many rounds were fired and over what period of time before the POI shift begins?  That would be really important to me, especially in a hunting rifle that needs to be stiff but light and will probably only be fired one time on the day of the shoot.  I would think the same thing would apply in a sniper rifle.   If it takes many rounds in rapid succession to produce the result, and the rifle is not to be shot but once or very slow rate of fire, the weight savings may be more important than protecting against a POI shift that will never happen in actual use.

    It's in the data.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RayDog

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 11:43:23 am »
    First off I don't care what I read so much as what I see when I shoot. I shoot a lot, it's my job. Every one of my rifles is fluted. 260, 7WSM,338LM and 308 are current loads I'm shooting a lot of. Chanlynn does make sure blank is fluted before rifled. Every one of them shoots awesome from 1st round to getting it to dam hot with a long string. 338LM is sub .5 MOA with the other three at .25 MOA hot or cold.
    I think the best thing is weight savings. Makes rifle feel lighter where it counts when shooting in practical field conditions, out front. This lets you have a fatter profile which is sometimes needed for an adequate shoulder(for proper suppressor or brake mounting) while not having to carry the added weight.

    But what the hell do I know :rotfl

    ColoradoWWW.ThunderBeastArms.com

    StevenTing

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 12:53:30 pm »
    First off I don't care what I read so much as what I see when I shoot. I shoot a lot, it's my job. Every one of my rifles is fluted. 260, 7WSM,338LM and 308 are current loads I'm shooting a lot of. Chanlynn does make sure blank is fluted before rifled. Every one of them shoots awesome from 1st round to getting it to dam hot with a long string. 338LM is sub .5 MOA with the other three at .25 MOA hot or cold.
    I think the best thing is weight savings. Makes rifle feel lighter where it counts when shooting in practical field conditions, out front. This lets you have a fatter profile which is sometimes needed for an adequate shoulder(for proper suppressor or brake mounting) while not having to carry the added weight.

    But what the hell do I know :rotfl

    Welcome Ray.  Just noticed the link at the bottom of your post.  I'm expecting a Thunderbeast to come out of NFA jail in the next 4-6 weeks.

    I don't shoot nearly as much you but whenever someone else more knowledgeable that I speaks, I listen, and the consider the facts.  At this point in time, I don't think I shoot enough to notice a difference.  And I don't think I have the skill to have repeatable shots, yet.  With that said, all of my rifles are fluted, except the AR.
    Utah

    RayDog

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    Re: Rifle Fluting
    « Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 04:11:08 pm »
    I have a new 308 barrel going on this week the last one went suddenly on me. A couple weeks ago I shot the best group I've ever shot and last week it would hold 1 MOA. Anyway the barrel going on is kinda a short flute. It was there and I needed a barrel.
    I would like to see a test where barrels that are like mine and fluted before being drilled are tested against barrels that are drilled and then fluted like most of them. My guy makes his blanks and flutes them before he drills and chambers. That makes sense to me.

    Hope you get your can soon. Let me know what you think.
    ColoradoWWW.ThunderBeastArms.com

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