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Author Topic: PTR-91!  (Read 62976 times)

ksuguy

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Re: PTR-91!
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2015, 10:37:35 am »
I currently have a Lucid on one of my FALs,  I need to get out to the range and try it though.   
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #26 on: July 18, 2015, 08:37:12 pm »
    I didn't get to go shooting today, and tomorrow I've got a long drive home. I did, however, field strip the rifle. I'm impressed with how simple the design is, and how modular. The weapon is meant to be soldier-proof, and it shows.

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #27 on: July 19, 2015, 11:52:21 pm »
     *sigh*......

    Nightcrawler you're a bad influence....I'm broke....I don't WANT to sell guns....

    But I now think I want NEED a PTR-32 and a Primary Arms 7.62X39 scope to go with it..........

     Been doing a lot of looking around and.....I've just never really "looked" at the HK design.....

    They're actually kinda sexy.....
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #28 on: July 20, 2015, 03:23:25 am »
    Just make sure you get a Generation 2.  I guess they improved the design so it's less picky about which AK magazines it takes.  There's a LOT of variance in AK magazines, obviously, so some might be better than others.

    As far as optics goes...hmm...

    http://www.burrisoptics.com/scopes/mtac-riflescopes-series/mtac-riflescope-1.5-6x42mm

    « Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 03:35:54 am by Nightcrawler »
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #29 on: July 20, 2015, 06:18:16 am »
    I don't know, though.  I kind of don't want a big heavy scope on a big heavy rifle. 

    Anyway, I need to find a good shooting spot in my area.  I need to get the sights zeroed.   Then I can do this:





    ...complete with dramatic music and editing, of course.

    The G3 series, of which I was unfamiliar with before now, impresses me.  It's extremely modular; if you want to go from a fixed to a sliding stock, you simply remove two pins and replace the stock assembly.  It's telling that they were able to scale the design up to a belt fed machine gun and down to a 9mm submachine gun.

    It's not as elegant as the FAL, but I think it may be a more practical design.  The FAL required extensive machining, so much so that, as a cost-saving measure, FN went to cast receivers back in the 1970s.  The G3 receiver is a stamped piece of steel, like an AKM.  It wasn't as widely adopted as the FAL ("only" fifty countries, compared to the FAL's 70), but it was produced in more, and in greater quantities.  Whereas the FAL had all but been retired by the 1990s, HK was manufacturing the G3 right up until 1997 or so.  Production continues in several countries, and the rifle continues in front line service (though nothing like its heyday at the height of the Cold War).






    Like the M14 in US service, the G3 served as a Designated Marksman Rifle for German forces in Afghanistan.  It is presently being replaced by the G28, an HK 417 variant.)  The G3 is, in my opinion, a better rifle than the one that replaced it in German service.









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    Grant

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #30 on: July 20, 2015, 08:33:45 am »
     All good points.

    They're good guns, not given "proper" credit in my opinion.   Me included, They've always been "Just G3's" and never looked at them a fraction longer.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #31 on: July 20, 2015, 08:49:48 am »
    To me, what kills the platform is a:
     - Ridiculous LOP
     - Military-grade trigger
     - 'Front heavy' balance, and
     - Increased recoil due to operating system

    The first two are easily fixed by tossing a couple bills at each issue, the latter two are just inherit to the design.

    They Look cool as hell...  That is why I bought the C93 back in 2010.  I just couldn't get past the downsides.



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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #32 on: July 20, 2015, 12:46:06 pm »
    The ergos are clunky, without a doubt.  But, from the standpoint of the era in which it was designed and produced, it hardly matters.  The most important factors for an infantry rifle are reliability, life cycle maintenance costs, and ease of mass production. 

    That said, I don't get what the HK fanboys of the 1990s were going on about without how everything from Heckler und Koch is so slick and sophisticated.  The G3, and all of its derivatives, are stamped-steel service weapons designed to be simple to manufacture and use.  They're not the pinnacle of firearms technology.

    You really don't see a lot of HK fanboys these days, though.  (The limited availability and high cost of HK guns is the most likely culprit.)  They've been supplanted in droves by AR fanboys.  The AR has had the benefit, though, of a couple decades of aftermarket development and envelop-pushing redesign, which is what allowed it to evolve.  I think the roller-locked system could have similarly benefited, had it been given the same amount of intellectual and engineering investment.  (Almost any design, really.)

    But the G3 got replaced with the G36, a glorified AR-18 with too much plastic where there ought to be metal.  But hey, they only melt if you use them, like, a lot:rotfl
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #33 on: July 20, 2015, 03:28:05 pm »
    Only recently have individual ergonomics been even considered a factor in service rifle design.  It started, I imagine, with the Army-wide issue of the M4.  Before that was the M16A2, with a 14" LOP.

    I get the fact that up until recently weapons designers could not accommodate everyone.  Rather, they picked what they considered to be a happy medium (or whatever the contract specified) and the soldiers in the field had to make it work.

    If I was being issued a rifle, and it was a G3, I would field it with no problem.  There is nothing so wrong with the system that it can't be worked around.  As a cake-eating civilian, though, with my choice of any weapon system in my budget, and no concern of logistical compatibility?  I would have to forgo it in favor of something more suited to my preferences.



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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #34 on: July 22, 2015, 08:55:48 am »
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 10:55:39 pm »
      I think the PTR is still worth the extra money, but been looking, apparently CAI's C308 rifle is made for them BY PTR on a PTR receiver.....  :hmm

    Interesting.

     
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #36 on: July 23, 2015, 01:00:43 am »
    The Century gun is built on a PTR receiver with surplus CETME parts. They'll only be around until the parts dry up. Accuracy is reportedly worse than the PTR, but from what I've read they're reliable.


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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #37 on: August 03, 2015, 04:33:51 pm »
    If you ever decide that the PTR's ergos could use a bit of improving, check this out:



    http://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-AR-U-S-MADE-SEMI-AUTO-LOWER-40p1931.htm

    It's a G3-pattern trigger housing that accepts AR-15 pistol grips and trigger guards. I think that's the right one for your PTR, since they have models for both "shelf-style" receivers and "two-pin" receivers. IIRC, your PTR is a shelf-style and I think that's the correct trigger housing, but I'm not 100% sure. The housings (or at least that one in particular) are also available in several different styles, i.e. Navy, S/E/F, S/1/20, etc.

    As for me, now I'm torn between an AK or PTR-32, or waiting for Zenith/MKE to start importing the Z-Series, especially since they've announced they'll be performing 922r conversions on them after they've been imported. They've already included all of the upgrades I'd want to make to a PTR (with the possible exception of that AR trigger housing), and they have flapper mag releases too! Actually, I've got half a mind to get a Z-43 pistol and Form 1 it into an SBR...



    Picture this, but with either an A3-style collapsing stock or a Choate side-folder, and maybe a 4-prong flash hider.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #38 on: August 03, 2015, 07:45:32 pm »
    I still haven't gotten to shoot my PTR.  I (unfortunately) live in Pueblo, now, and haven't found a place to shoot.  I think I'll have to drive down to New Mexico, to the NRA Whittington Center (I think), to find a rifle range.  I work stupid hours, so I don't know where the shooting spots are around here.  I really just need (for starters, at least) a place where I can set up at 30 meters and get a battle zero on the thing.
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    louie the lumberjack

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #39 on: August 03, 2015, 11:02:16 pm »
    I still haven't gotten to shoot my PTR.  I (unfortunately) live in Pueblo, now, and haven't found a place to shoot.  I think I'll have to drive down to New Mexico, to the NRA Whittington Center (I think), to find a rifle range.  I work stupid hours, so I don't know where the shooting spots are around here.  I really just need (for starters, at least) a place where I can set up at 30 meters and get a battle zero on the thing.

    Pueblo, CO?  If you only need 30m, I frequented this one outside of Schriever AFB which is about an hour, to hour and a half north and east of you.  He closes the range in inclement weather, but I shot there when it was 32 with flurries.
    https://www.dragonmans.com/content/shooting_range

    Fair warning--this guy may strike you as being utterly insane...and he probably is. 

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #40 on: August 04, 2015, 02:40:05 am »
    Pueblo, CO?  If you only need 30m, I frequented this one outside of Schriever AFB which is about an hour, to hour and a half north and east of you.  He closes the range in inclement weather, but I shot there when it was 32 with flurries.
    https://www.dragonmans.com/content/shooting_range

    Fair warning--this guy may strike you as being utterly insane...and he probably is.

    louie the lumberjack

     :shocked All that sounded pretty good until the end, there.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #41 on: August 04, 2015, 03:30:29 am »
    :shocked All that sounded pretty good until the end, there.

    Yeah, that's Pueblo.  Living here is like playing Fallout, all the time.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #42 on: August 04, 2015, 10:30:52 am »
    Its outside Colorado Springs actually, which isn't so much like Fallout, its more like watching 19 Kids and Counting...all the time.  Because of the city's demographics, its a bit of a conservative happy-land.  Like living in a bubble, really.

    Either way, Dragonman is a Class III dealer and probably has a full auto PTR-91 on hand to rent.  The range is safe and if you ever watched that Larry the Cable Guy show, he was the guy Larry interviewed when we wanted to shoot machine guns.  The general perception that he's crazy is due in part to his being happy to play to the caricature of the liberal stereotype "gunowner."  :panic :panic The other part is due to a few accidents involving explosives.  No customers died, to my knowledge, but I'll let you Google him.

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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #43 on: August 04, 2015, 11:18:48 am »
    Only recently have individual ergonomics been even considered a factor in service rifle design.  It started, I imagine, with the Army-wide issue of the M4.  Before that was the M16A2, with a 14" LOP.

    IIRC, the LOP of the M16A2 was lengthened from that of the M16A1 for ergonomic reasons...the ergonomics of the USMC (possibly their rifle team.)
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #44 on: August 04, 2015, 11:46:52 am »
    IIRC, the LOP of the M16A2 was lengthened from that of the M16A1 for ergonomic reasons...the ergonomics of the USMC (possibly their rifle team.)
    That is what I read online, (about the rifle team) but I have no independent verification.

    What you say is true, though I can't think of many guys (let alone those who are wearing armor) who would do better with the A2 vs the A1.  The USMC had their reasons, I am sure, but the A2 still sucks for most of us.

    Someday when I have loads of money to throw into guns I don't need, I will build a M16A2 'lookalike' clone.  It will have a modern A1-length stock. 



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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #45 on: August 04, 2015, 12:05:21 pm »
    If anything the A2 stock is still too short for me,  but I am a freak.   The best fitting rifle I have is an M1A with one of those ridiculously thick rubber buttpads on it.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 05:13:39 pm »
    IIRC, the LOP of the M16A2 was lengthened from that of the M16A1 for ergonomic reasons...the ergonomics of the USMC (possibly their rifle team.)

    PEO Soldier and the Army Marksmanship Unit had a lot to do with it.  It was back in the 80s, remember.  Flak Jackets were only occasionally worn, and were generally not something that was used for maneuver forces.  The longer stock was deemed more comfortable for prone firing, or firing from fighting positions, while getting the taught "nose-to-charging-handle" position.

     The M4 carbine's collapsing stock wasn't even for ergonomic reasons; I've been to a couple of military shooting courses and the (mostly Marine-trained) instructors I had all opined that having the stock all the way out was the best for shooting (I kept mine one or two clicks in, I think, with my vest on, regardless).  The collapsing stock was to reduce the OAL for mechanized troops and vehicle crews, since the M16 wasn't readily adaptable to a folding stock.

    Even the M16A2 isn't that bad compared to some of the bullpups out there.  The Tavor has, what, a 15" length of pull?  And the Israelis make judicious use of body armor.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #47 on: August 13, 2015, 11:03:46 am »
    I'd love to get a PTR-91.
    I'm torn though.  Between this one:
    http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR%20Classic%20Wood%20Legacy%20Model*?id=28
    And this one:
    http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR%2091%20KPF%20Legacy%20Model*?id=7
    The reasons I'm torn... Two reasons. 
    1.  I love wood furniture on fighting guns.  Wood has Soul. 
    2.  I do love that HK style collapsing stock.  Makes the overall gun much easier to transport and store.  I could do without the railed front end on this one... it's all about that stock's utility.
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #48 on: August 13, 2015, 07:11:22 pm »
    Only hangup I have with the collapsing stock (and probably the reason why PTR only offers 'em special order) is that they're darn near impossible to find, and freaking expensive when you do! I think the G3/HK91 patterns go for something like $250 a pop new, and the -93/-94(MP5) pattern ones can list at twice that!
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    Re: PTR-91!
    « Reply #49 on: August 13, 2015, 11:35:37 pm »
    I put a hundred rounds through the PTR-91 today.  The only hiccup it had was with one of my $2.99 magazines, which had the inner feed lips bent inward.  A little dickering with a pair of needle-nosed pliers and it was good to go.

    I need to get the sight tool to properly adjust the elevation.  The way the Germans did it, the rifle was zeroed by the armorer and then just left alone.  It didn't have a bunch of clickey knobs to mess with like, say, the M16A2 does.  The utility of target-style iron sights on an infantry rifle is debatable anyway.

    The rifle kicks, but it's not nearly so bad as some folks on the internet have made it seem.  Larry's daughters shot it without any issue, other than that the rifle was too heavy for them.

    George, the "Legacy" Models on PTR's website aren't in production right now.  There are some deals out there, though.  Check these out:

    http://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html?brand=1275

    They have sixteen and eighteen inch models, with fixed and collapsing stocks.  Personally, I would, and did, get the 18" model.  The 16" models shown have the same rifle-length handguard and everything.  The only difference is less than 2" of barrel, and the slightly shorter one isn't going to be noticeably handier (nothing like the difference between a 20.5" M16A4 and a 14.5" M4).


    $999.00

    You can buy surplus wood stock sets from RTG Parts for $20.00. 

    http://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK91-G3-WOOD-STOCK-SET-25p2139.htm

    (Sold out though.)

    HK Parts has wood furniture for a lot more.

    http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-G3-91-PTR-Wood-Stock-Forearm-Set-Surplus-9p16457.htm

    Atlantic Firearms continues to have good deals on PTR rifles, including models with the welded top rail so you don't have to buy a separate scope mount.

    http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/308-50-cal-rifles/ptr-91-h-k-type-rifles.html
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