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Author Topic: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)  (Read 5617 times)

SSgt G

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Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« on: March 19, 2010, 03:34:24 AM »
George Hill just posted his thoughts on some of the pistol caliber carbines (PCC) available these days.  My only PCC, and the only one I have experience with, is the Ruger Carbine/Police Carbine in 9mm. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Police_Carbine

I like this little rifle.  It's on the heavy side, but what Ruger isn't?  And you know that this weight translates into ruggedness.  The weight is also due to the interesting blowback bolt design which you can read about on the wiki page. 

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this carbine.


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SuperNaut

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 09:54:52 AM »
I love my Storm, so now George knows somebody that loves a Storm!  My only complaint is the lack of hi-cap mags for the .45
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strangelittleman

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 10:46:48 AM »
I also have a PC9.
It has proven to be very durable, reliable and shoots better at 100m than Ruger's Mimi-14. The PC9 shoots approx 3.5" groups @100m. Inside of 50m the heavy little carbine will place round after round right on top of each other, again and again.
100m is really the outer edge of the ideal performance zone for the 9mm carbine, however I have went 10 for 10 on std human sillhouettes( approx 8"groups) @ 150m very easily and 7-8 for 10 ( not very pretty, but very possible) @200m during gusting wind swept, winter days.
The PC9 is a very well made, perhaps over engineered, carbine that is built to last long enough to see your great-grandchildren.
The only complaints I have w/ it are the odd take-down & reassembly, which requires a screw driver, and the fact that when I bought it ( say around 1997 or so) the only mags that were available were 10 rounders.
The current price for 15 rd mags is a bit on the steep side (Ruger has always been like that) but I have 20 or so 10rounders so I'm not really complaining.
The model I own is the older one w/ the std open sights. Stay away from the older ghost ring models as the rear sight is less than satisfactory. The last 3 yrs of production brought out a greatly improved rear ghost ring sight which is virtually identical to the new rear sight on the latest Mini-14s. If the ghost ring version is what you want go for one of the latter ones.
     
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 11:17:51 AM »
There are many AR mods to convert an AR to a PCC, and they are fine and dandy. 
One of my favorite PCC's is the Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP.  My friend Ben has one.  It's fantastic. 
Okay, my choice on this might have been a shock to some.  Let's tour my train of thought on this.
I think a proper PCC should not be certain things... heavy, bulky, complicated, awkward, overly expensive... the best example of an ideal PCC would be the classic M1 Carbine, should that gun be in a common pistol caliber.  If you pick up and shoulder the M1 Carbine, it's almost pure delight.  Imagine if that was in a common caliber using common magazines.  Imagine if it had a forward mount for a Red Dot and a mount for a clip on pistol light, such as an M3X.  Done.  That is pretty much the weapon I'd want as a PCC.  The closest thing to that is the Sub-2000.

We have 1 Storm Lover... Cool.  No, I'm not being sarcastic because I really dig the gun's looks, and share the same wish about the magazines.
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Matthew Mayner

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 11:25:41 AM »
An M1 Carbine in 10mm fed with Glock mags would be cool.
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2010, 11:27:05 AM »
An M1 Carbine in 10mm fed with Glock mags would be cool EPIC.
:clap
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strangelittleman

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 11:27:31 AM »
I really like the Kel-Tec Sub2000. I have shot quite a few rds out of a friend's Sub2000 that has the Beretta92 mag set-up.
The 2000 shoots flawlessly, mag changes are very quick, it folds out of the way; storing in a get-home bag, behind a truck seat, stored closed or opened while on the seat of a folded down back seat of a hatch-back car, etc..
The 2000 is also suprisingly accurate out to 100m, regulary getting 3.5"to 5" groups. I like them alot, the only reason I don't have one is that They don't sell one set-up to take BHP mags or CZ mags....It'd be a great choice for a PCC.
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Beamish

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 11:30:04 AM »
An M1 Carbine in 10mm fed with Glock mags would be cool.
Even single-stack 1911 mags.

That 10mm M-1 Carbine build often comes up as highly lust-worthy because it simply is.

GeorgeHill

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2010, 11:33:01 AM »
Absolutely.  Unfortunately no such thing exists.  The closest we have is the wee little Sub-2000 in .40.  No, it's not exactly lust worthy, but it's cheap and functional. 
This is like wanting Prime Rib and pulling into McDonald's drive through... I know...
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strangelittleman

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2010, 11:35:02 AM »
It's a real shame Ruger never got around to a PC10 or PC45...
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FMJ

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2010, 11:55:33 AM »
I figure one day, I could design a .357 Mag pump carbine to be simple and reliable and inexpensive.  I just need to start designing the bolt and go on from there; it will have detachable box magazines too!

Or should I skip straigth to 10mm?  :devillol
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Matthew Mayner

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2010, 12:13:41 PM »
We need to bug Kahr about the M10mm Carbine.  They should be able to do it.  Does Glock make 30 round 10mm mags?  Or would Kahr balk at using a competitors magazines?  Maybe they could make their own?
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010, 12:15:12 PM »
I figure one day, I could design a .357 Mag pump carbine to be simple and reliable and inexpensive.  I just need to start designing the bolt and go on from there; it will have detachable box magazines too!

Or should I skip straigth to 10mm?  :devillol
They already made one.  It was called the Timberwolf.  It was pretty slick, but didn't sell.
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FMJ

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2010, 12:35:47 PM »
They already made one.  It was called the Timberwolf.  It was pretty slick, but didn't sell.

But mine would be modern, and black with rails.  I'd incorporate some AR lower features, so that for example, you would be able to put your own AR grips on it--you know, stuff like that.  I belive that's what's known as modularity.  Also, I like what they did with the Benelli M4 Super 90, where it comes with its irons, but they put a little bit of 1913 on the receiver, for example.  I'd go with the same concept.  Basically, I'd try to make the weapon relevant to today's market standatrds while trying to KISS it.

And if I don't do it to sell it and make bank, I'll just do it as a way to channel the creativity that I seldom have.  Why not?
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huey148

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 01:14:14 PM »
Has anyone any experience with the Mec Tech carbine systems that uses the existing lower for your Glock....
http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.html

on a side note, I had a Hi-Point 4095 carbine, shot well, the trigger sucked but it had a ungainly beauty about it that screamed functional that it was hard to part with it....needed cash to buy my AR though so off she went....

also +1 for any discussion here in favor of an M1 Carbine...saving my pennies and headed up to Camp Perry possibly in June to buy one from the CMP store...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 02:02:59 PM by huey148 »
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Beamish

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »
Has anyone any experience with the Mec Tech carbine systems that uses the existing lower for your Glock....
http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.html

I have shot one on a Para double-stack 1911 in .40 S&W and it is stupid fun.  Sub-50 yards with a  dirt-cheap Barska red dot it was a point-and-click affair.  Out to 100 yards things got a little more adventuresome but it was still minute-of-man without a problem.

I would buy one without hesitation.

Harm

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 04:24:52 PM »
Just a heads up Double Diamond already has a series of pistol caliber carbines.  9mm not so uncommon, 40S&W headed towards common, and a new .357sig (uncommon and I want so bad!) with rumors of a 10mm in the works.

http://www.shop.doublediamondsupply.com/
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Harm

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 04:35:59 PM »
Also don't forget the original BAD A!
7.62x25
http://www.cncgunsparts.com/home

And of course the AR57 upper.  Which is very sweet.  But IMHO Pistol Caliber Carbines are not usually for serious work.  But I wouldn't hesitate to give one to my wife for HD per our emergency plan. 
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larbn

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2010, 04:31:25 PM »
What could be added to the Sub-2000 to make it more reliable?

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2010, 06:07:35 PM »
That AR 57 does look like a lot of fun.
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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2010, 09:59:31 PM »
What could be added to the Sub-2000 to make it more reliable?
Simple.  1.  Polish the Chamber.  2.  Treat the gun with Slipstream.
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larbn

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2010, 11:01:48 PM »
Thank you George. Have the slipstream,just need the Sub-2000.

SSgt G

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2010, 07:14:50 AM »
Quote
They already made one.  It was called the Timberwolf.  It was pretty slick, but didn't sell.


One reason may be that it's kinda ugly.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/imi/timber/index.htm

They could have done better.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=TH3&toggle=tf


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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2010, 08:29:15 AM »
Dagnabbit!  A 26" barrel on a pump rifle caliber carbine??

I think that would be a good FL defense rifle with a 18.5" barrel.

Geoff
Who notes the FL Assault Weapons laws make it legally inadvisable to defend yourself with your AR or Ruger Mini or even an M-1 Carbine. 

SSgt G

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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC)
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2010, 09:14:00 AM »
Quote
Dagnabbit!  A 26" barrel on a pump rifle caliber carbine??

I didn't say it was perfect.  :P


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