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Author Topic: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots  (Read 5117 times)

DMGNUT

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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 09:14:19 PM »
The average was 70 yards and the longest was 182 yards?  Wow.  I had no idea.  That's close range.  In that case, my PSL type thing would be great.  I'm confident enough that I could do that easily.  Unless we're talking about hitting a dime and then I don't think I could do that with any gun.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 09:22:14 PM »
I'm not surprised. Most of the time the police are dealing with one guy who is not very sophisticated in his tools or capabilities. As such, they can usually get pretty darned close. Add in the fact that most of the time this is an urban scenario, finding 100 yds that you cannot cross is rarity.

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Avenger29

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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 10:33:46 PM »
The average was 70 yards and the longest was 182 yards?  Wow.  I had no idea.  That's close range.  In that case, my PSL type thing would be great.  I'm confident enough that I could do that easily.  Unless we're talking about hitting a dime and then I don't think I could do that with any gun.

Popo snipers need a very precise rifle not for the range, but for the absolute accuracy. Remember they might have to take a hostage saving shot vs. the chest shot goal of say, DMR types. I'd get real nervous as a hostage if I knew the popo was hauling out a PSL to use as a sniper rifle vs. the standard Rem 700 or Savage in .308.

I even seem to recall a company offering accurized shotguns with a slug barrel and scope for police sniper work. The idea didn't take, I presume.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 10:57:15 PM »
The Israelis use sniper shotguns all the time.   :hmm
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Thernlund

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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 01:57:07 AM »
The average was 70 yards and the longest was 182 yards?  Wow.  I had no idea.  That's close range.

I dunno man.  You're used to the back country and open spaces.  Go into the city and pace off 70 yards.  In an urban setting it's a lot further than you might think.  180 yards?  Fugetaboutit.


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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 02:08:47 AM »
You know, Xsquidgator made a thread about some book called "Fry the Brain."  I got it, and I'm reading it for my English class (project about guerrilla warfare).  As you may or may not know, the book is specifically about urban sniping. 

I think that it is safe to say that most shots take place within 100 meters or less in an urban setting.

The Israelis also use supressed 10/22s...
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Khorne

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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 10:39:16 AM »
I dunno man.  You're used to the back country and open spaces.  Go into the city and pace off 70 yards.  In an urban setting it's a lot further than you might think.  180 yards?  Fugetaboutit.


-T.
Hhhmmm....maybe we can put together some kind of "urban sniper" course.  I'd love to learn what I can and can't do with this sort of situation. 
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 12:06:05 PM »
When we took a custom made SOTIC-for-LEO's course, we arrived with  the standard 100 yd zeros. We never shot 100 or under until the last day. The instructors made us shoot 400 - 800 yards all week then and only then did we drop down to the basic 100 yard range and under. After all week at long distances, the 200 yds, 100 yds and under shots were almost too easy. When I knew I could make it consistently at such far off distances, my confidence was unshakeable at 100 yards.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 01:55:05 PM »
Did you guys READ the article?   :facepalm

The average was 51 not 70 yards.

Quote
Average distance of a police sniper shooting in the United States?... the generic answer to that question has been "around 70 yards." This yardage has been stated as fact in sniper schools, articles, books, and conversations around the country. When pressed for a source of this information, most people have credited "the FBI's statistics."
When the American Sniper Association was formed in 2000, one of the first orders of business was obtaining a copy of those statistics to see how current they were, and to try to update them. We were somewhat amazed to discover that the FBI didn't collect information or statistics specific to police sniper shootings. The report so many snipers, instructors, and authors had been quoting and relying on was, in fact, a myth, a complete urban legend.

snip

Quote
The average police sniper distance was 51 yards. Of all the sniper shots, 95% took place between zero and 100 yards. The rest were equally divided between the 100 to 150 yard bracket and the 150 to 250 yard bracket. This has profound training implications.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 02:53:07 PM by moose42 »
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 02:50:45 PM »
Did you guys READ the article.   :facepalm

The average was 51 not 70 yards.


I read it.  But I've also been reading "Fry the Brain."  ;D

I just finished reading the Sarajevo chapter, in one part it mentions a Serbian sniper that shot at distances of 400 meters---that was considered "long range" in Sarajevo.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 04:54:37 PM »
The thing with urban sniping, as Avenger points out, is not distance, it's hyper-accuracy.  On the battle field you may have to put down a guy from 800 meters out, in which a wounding COM shot would be fine.  Wound him, shoot him again.  He'll only get less dangerous the more lead you put in him.

In an civil setting in a modern urban center, that may not work.  You have a guy with a gun holding hostages.  Maybe even shielding himself with one or more of them.  In such a situation if you don't put him to bed on the very first shot, he can get very much more dangerous.  If you miss, he now knows the cops are shooting at him, has gone from "I may get out of this"-mode to "nothing to lose"-mode, and starts spraying the hostages.

As well, if he is shielded by one or more hostages, you may have to thread a needle on one shot and no do-overs.  A half-inch off target could mean failure of epic proportions.

<sidebar>

Then you have moments when worlds collide.  Remember those snipers that put down the pirates holding that captain hostage?  That was a no-fail-thread-the-needle scenario while taking synchronized shots at a moving target from a moving platform at battlefield distances.  I think most people utterly fail to appreciate the significance of what went on there.

</sidebar>


I'd take an Urban Sniping course.


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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 02:08:01 AM »
Hmm, now that I think about it (and after seeing T's post)...

Perhaps the only real similarity between the OP article and what I've been reading in Fry the Brain is the fact that the sniping takes place in a urban setting, that's it.  And maybe the distances, but those might be a correlation.

Maybe these days, the really organized guerrillas care more about precision, since their targets often wear body armor, but it seems that for the most part, a guerrilla probably cares more about being on man whereas a security force HAS to be surgical.  After all, the guerrilla sniper needs to make do with what they have (often times, these turn out to be old bolt actions ie Mausers, SMLE, etc)--we all know that those guns in those configuration aren't sub-MOA much less that they might have special FMJBT match grade ammo with Lapua brass.

The other thing I just realized was that a guerrilla sniper works when everything appears to be normal, whereas the police snipers are already dealing with a tense situation where the target might be aware.  The clandestine can use the element of surprise, but the cops can't.

I'm glad this thread got brought up; it definitely gets you thinking.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 05:17:56 PM »

<sidebar>

Then you have moments when worlds collide.  Remember those snipers that put down the pirates holding that captain hostage?  That was a no-fail-thread-the-needle scenario while taking synchronized shots at a moving target from a moving platform at battlefield distances.  I think most people utterly fail to appreciate the significance of what went on there.

</sidebar>


The shots were taken at 25M from what I remember.  But yeah, still great shooting.


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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 07:02:59 PM »
The thing with urban sniping, as Avenger points out, is not distance, it's hyper-accuracy.  On the battle field you may have to put down a guy from 800 meters out, in which a wounding COM shot would be fine.  Wound him, shoot him again.  He'll only get less dangerous the more lead you put in him.

In an civil setting in a modern urban center, that may not work.  You have a guy with a gun holding hostages.  Maybe even shielding himself with one or more of them.  In such a situation if you don't put him to bed on the very first shot, he can get very much more dangerous.  If you miss, he now knows the cops are shooting at him, has gone from "I may get out of this"-mode to "nothing to lose"-mode, and starts spraying the hostages.

As well, if he is shielded by one or more hostages, you may have to thread a needle on one shot and no do-overs.  A half-inch off target could mean failure of epic proportions.

I agree T.

 There are other things to deal with too. Things like structural grade glass. There's video out there of a bank/hostage situation where a police sniper engaged, but the targeted B.G didn't go down. B.G.'s started shooting the hostages, bad stuff. The grade/type of glass (I believe for the doors in this case) played a huge role in projectile inefficiency and placement. Supposedly the choice of caliber was an issue as well.
 Then there's the random wind tunnel effect that occurs in cities with tall structures. I can't count how many times I was almost blown over back in NYC. Now take that same force and apply it to a projectile. Thankfully, NYPD's ESU practices a lot.

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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 02:20:02 PM »
The shots were taken at 25M from what I remember.  But yeah, still great shooting.

Upon some poking around, I stand corrected.  You are right.


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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 02:36:04 PM »
That would be interesting to try out.  Get to trucks, put targets in the back of one, have two shooters in the other. Attempt to recreate.  Ah man, that would make a sweet video.
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Re: Average Distance for Police Sniper Shots
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 06:23:43 PM »
Hhhmmm....maybe we can put together some kind of "urban sniper" course.  I'd love to learn what I can and can't do with this sort of situation. 

Thunder Ranch has that course:
Quote
Urban Precision Rifle - UPR
This new format is a fusion of the two time tested TR doctrines of Precision Rifle and Urban Rifle. In this new format the surgical application of the scoped rifle to urban and compressed environments is addressed. Most documented precision rifle shots are in fact applied at shorter ranges in compressed times and at what are often complex targets. Safety, use of cover /concealment, engagement of moving targets, hostage type targets, firing from elevated platforms as well as other appropriate subjects will be addressed in the course. Altered firing positions applied under duress will be addressed by scenarios in Terminator 3 and Thunderville.

I used to hang with a guy who had been a Marine sniper in Somalia and he pretty much echoed a lot of the thoughts here. According to him, little to no concealment or stalking, and the ranges weren't super long, mostly camped out on rooftops putting down super precise fire to break up or remove the leadership of hostile groups if the group advanced on someplace they were protecting.


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