Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: AR15 'carry handle' sights  (Read 3581 times)

Kaso

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3320

  • Offline
AR15 'carry handle' sights
« on: March 20, 2012, 11:45:56 PM »
I have not said much of it, but this past January, I broke down and bought an AR.  It is a DPMS, 20" with a fixed stock. (I don't have a camera, right now.)  My sister was given the choice of models, and she wanted the one similiar to her Basic Training rifle.  ::)  Okay, whatever.  I did insist upon a flat-top model, so I could play with optics.

So, I ordered a Lucid LD7 through Crusader Weaponry, and it is really nice!  I have no complaints, and that is the only way I had shot during daylight.

So, it happened that my sister's suitor had re-qualification on Monday, so Sunday we shot it with the detachable carry handle iron sights.  In short, they suck.  With the 200 yard peep sight, it was passable, but the CQB ghost ring was lacking - either that, or the guy pulling the trigger was.  :whistle

I just have a hard time shooting the AR, and the iron sights seem to exaggerate my problem.  My AK, on the other hand, is much more familiar to me, and I much prefer the sight setup.

I have read online, guys gushing about the AR's sights, while at the same time maligning those of the AK...  What am I missing?


Kaso
People barely manage to recognize where they are in time and space; they don't have time to bother where you are or what you're doing.

- MTK20


Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

THE NORSEMAN

  • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
  • Staff Member Emeritus
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4895

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 11:54:19 PM »
Open sights vs. peep sights.  Two different animals.  For me, peep sights are more intuitive, but I'm slightly more accurate with open, as I've had more experience with them.
This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty...
The right of self defense is the first law of nature.

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 12:04:40 AM »
If you have ever served in the past 40 years with the military the iron setup on the AR is like a familiar friend...rear peep and post, the eye will naturally center the post once you have trained on it...longer sight radius and a round that doesn't drop as much all lead to the "perception" of a better set up..in truth its a bad artist that blames his brush for what appears on the canvas...
Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

Avenger29

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3850
  • It's party time, chumps!

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 12:13:02 AM »
You are probably using the AR-15 aperture style sights wrong. Just look through the rear sight and focus on the front sight, it will center automatically. It is very fast, intuitive, and works well once you realize you just put the front sight on the target and let it center itself automatically in the rear aperture.

This system is proven and has been present on US Military rifles long before the M-16 and AR-15 came along.
I don't THINK I'll ever have to face down routers in the streets.

I should hope not. Mobs of rogue woodworking tools would suck to repel.

Coronach

  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6016
  • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 12:53:00 AM »
You're missing experience with the sights. If you're more familiar with the AK sight setup, it's not surprising that you're better with it. Give it a few times and see what happens.

Also, don't look at the rear sight. Don't concentrate on it at all. Look through it. Pretend it isn't there, and don't try to line anything up but the front sight and the target. A lot of guys who have trouble with aperture sights are either trying to line stuff up, or not getting consistent cheek placement
OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

THE NORSEMAN

  • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
  • Staff Member Emeritus
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4895

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 01:05:15 AM »
^^^^^^^ That.  Your brain automatically centers your view through the rear sight.  It's going for the largest field of view/most input by default. You shoot a peep sight set up more like a red dot set up than traditional open sights. Practice will help immensely.

Unless-  The shooter is cross dominant, and shooting off the wrong shoulder.  Then things get miserable, but fixable.
This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty...
The right of self defense is the first law of nature.

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 10:41:39 AM »
Quote
Unless-  The shooter is cross dominant, and shooting off the wrong shoulder.  Then things get miserable, but fixable.

said thing happened to me deploying at 38...after shooting right handed for 20 years my damn eyes took it upon themselves to switch dominance...made for a very messy affair first time out until I got squared away and literally practiced dry firing behind the bleachers for 4 hours until I could shoot left and still operate and change mags and such..

Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"


Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Kaso

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3320

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 11:37:39 AM »
You're missing experience with the sights.

A lot of guys who have trouble with aperture sights are either trying to line stuff up...
That's me, on both counts.  Looks like more range time is in order! :)

Thanks.


Kaso
People barely manage to recognize where they are in time and space; they don't have time to bother where you are or what you're doing.

- MTK20

Outbreak

  • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor
  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 10856
  • Outbreak Monkey ^

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »
You guys might have just fixed one of my major issues with rifle shooting.
TexasOutbreak

I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

sarge712

  • WTA LEO
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4525
  • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2012, 02:11:38 PM »
If you zero it with the peep at the 6/3 setting on the rear drum at 25m and later switch to the ghost ring, you have to move the rear sight up 3 or 4 clicks to bring the ghost ring up into the same line.

I had the same problem with peeps once. I grew up only shooting open sight rifles but now I love the military peep almost exclusively.

". . .We're into Plan B. Still breathing?
Now we gotta make the best of it. Improvise, adapt to the environment, Darwin, S__t Happens, I-Ching, whatever man, we gotta rooooll with it."  - Tom Cruise, Collateral

"We are men of peace but if you wanna fight, we will obliiiiige you." - Officer Keith Locklear

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2012, 02:17:09 PM »
You zero at 25 with the sights on 6/3 minus 2 clicks to account for the bullets trajectory at 25 and 250 being the same and then move it back to 6/3 for use....any sighting wind age adjustments are made on the rear sights but elevation is adjusted on the front post.... Hope that was clear
Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

Chief45

  • WTA LEO
  • Contributor
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 03:04:08 PM »
You zero at 25 with the sights on 6/3 minus 2 clicks to account for the bullets trajectory at 25 and 250 being the same and then move it back to 6/3 for use....any sighting wind age adjustments are made on the rear sights but elevation is adjusted on the front post.... Hope that was clear

ok Huey.   You got me there,  had to pause for a second and think about it.

Wind age adjustments  (Wind, Age adjustments)   or windage adjustments.    Problem is,  it works either way for me.  :coffee
Kansas. . . . Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 03:05:57 PM »
 :banghead  darn iPhone keyboard...
Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

The Shootist

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 04:22:32 PM »
Picture imaginary cross hairs in the peep, the the top of the front sight post should be where the imaginary crosshairs intersect if the rifle is zeroed properly The bullseye should not come into focuse until the front  and rear sights are aligned then the rear sight should go fuzzy once you have alignment and the target and front sight should should become sharper. Remember like anything else that shoots the Front sight is the most important one when getting ready to fire.

FWIW, Don't zero for the 25 metres the military tells you, you get better use of Combat zeroing for 50metres as this gets you center mass out to 300M instead of 250M. Which is the more useful the real lethal range of a 20 inch AR.
Pennsylvania


Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 04:42:10 PM »
thats the purpose of turning the elevation know down 2 click from the 300 yard setting to put the impact of the round at 25 simulate what the 300 meter strike "should" be...you then set it back on the 300 meter mark for use....back (and I mean way back) when we were still using 16A1's that did not have an elevation wheel I can see where a 50 meter zero might be of use as you described...but man, I have seen people take all day to put 3 in the circle on a standard zero target at 25...cant imaging what 50 meters would take them....
Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

huey148

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2501
    • Huey's Gunsight

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2012, 04:48:46 PM »
and also FWIW...do you know how many stupid stories I have heard people say about the 8/3 marking on the AR sight drum...#1, folks if you are in the Army you probably didn't get trained to properly use it...and #2 no, it does not mean that the strike of the round at 300 meters is the same as 800 meters.... what it means that at its lower setting on the wheel the rifle is elevated for 300 meters...turn it all the way one time back to the mark and then its elevated for 800 meters (same goes for the 6/3 markings on the M4 except 600 meters).... man, I also hear someone try and explain something along the lines that at that mark for every 80 meters the round traveled the rounds dropped 3 clicks...80 meters? WTH would the military use an 80 meter unit of measurement when most training manuals were written for guys that could barely read in the first place.  :facepalm

Oh and yes, for those with the "5.56 is only effective out to XXX meters" ....800 meters is the maximum effective range for an area target using the 3 round burst mode..
Huey's Gunsight  http://www.hueysgunsight.blogspot.com

"I don't know about you guys, but I got a woody..how 'bout you SFC Hopewell"

strangelittleman

  • Small, Dark and Handsome
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2179

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2012, 07:28:27 PM »
On the detchable carry handle sights and establishing a BZO:
When establishing a BZO, use the small aperature.
With the exception of the primary settings of the elevation wheel described below, ALL elevation adjustments will be made on the front sight.
Set the elevation wheel on the low 6/3. ( the high 6/3 is for 600m)
If you look just past the 6/3 mark there will be a small Z, that is where you set the elevation wheel for a 25m BZO.
The establishing of a 25m(1,000 inch) BZO is for a 300m zero. Upon getting the 25m zero one then sets the elevation wheel at 6/3.
You will be set at 300m. This is a great setting for a 20" A4.
For shooting at tgts inside 300m, 6/3 minus 1, is the setting you'll need.

For establishing a BZO w/ an A2 fixed carry handle at 25m, ensure the elevation wheel is at the low 8/3.
Your BZO setting should be 8/3 plus 1, once BZO is established, set elevation wheel at 8/3.
For tgts inside 300m, 8/3 minus 1 is the setting. ( The high 8/3 is, of course, 800m).
 
PS: There is growing popularity amongst those issued/shooting M4s for the 50m/250m BZO method.
I have never established a 250m BZO, as I am happy w/ the 25m/300m BZO for my A4 and M4, so I can't really speak on this method.
I defer to those familiar on the 50m/250m BZO to speak on it.
North CarolinaSemper Gumby.....Always Flexible.

Avenger29

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3850
  • It's party time, chumps!

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2012, 07:51:30 PM »
I prefer the 50m/250m zero vs. the 25/300, but then again I'm shooting a 16" bbl gun. I also don't have the fancy A2 rear sight setup, just a simple Daniel Defense fixed rear.

Honestly, the best way to go IMO if you have an optic as your primary sighting method. is to have a same plane rear aperture in a simple sight (i.e., no elevation wheel on the rear sight). Zero it for either the 25/300 or 50/250 zero and leave it. No shifting zero to think about. After all, with a red dot sight or a low magnification scope you aren't going to be changing the zero of the optic, so why do you need to change the sight settings on your irons?

Spend some time on the range learning your holdovers and you are good to go.
I don't THINK I'll ever have to face down routers in the streets.

I should hope not. Mobs of rogue woodworking tools would suck to repel.

Coronach

  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6016
  • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

  • Online
Re: Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2012, 08:55:22 PM »
You guys might have just fixed one of my major issues with rifle shooting.
oh? What are you doing? Trying to line up the rear sight, too? BTDT.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

Avenger29

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3850
  • It's party time, chumps!

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2012, 10:05:12 PM »
oh? What are you doing? Trying to line up the rear sight, too? BTDT.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Me too. If you shoot open sights a lot (AKs, pistols, etc) it's easy to find yourself making that mistake even when you know better.
I don't THINK I'll ever have to face down routers in the streets.

I should hope not. Mobs of rogue woodworking tools would suck to repel.

Coronach

  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6016
  • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

  • Online
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2012, 10:57:20 PM »
Yep. I remember the day that it clicked for me. It was like "oh, it really IS that easy." It's kind of a 'use the force' moment when you let go of the rear sight and stop worrying about keeping everything centered.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

seanp

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4564
  • Redneck Canadian

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2012, 11:23:50 PM »
To be honest, I never even thought about it.  I grew up shooting peep sights and I thought everyone knew...
"Nobody wants to be here and nobody wants to leave."
The Road - Cormac McCarthy

strangelittleman

  • Small, Dark and Handsome
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2179

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 04:19:10 PM »
I prefer the 50m/250m zero vs. the 25/300, but then again I'm shooting a 16" bbl gun. I also don't have the fancy A2 rear sight setup, just a simple Daniel Defense fixed rear.

Honestly, the best way to go IMO if you have an optic as your primary sighting method. is to have a same plane rear aperture in a simple sight (i.e., no elevation wheel on the rear sight). Zero it for either the 25/300 or 50/250 zero and leave it. No shifting zero to think about. After all, with a red dot sight or a low magnification scope you aren't going to be changing the zero of the optic, so why do you need to change the sight settings on your irons?

Spend some time on the range learning your holdovers and you are good to go.
  You must have the DD 1.5 stand alone rear sight....If so, that is one rugged, durable and simple sight. It's a great choice for any AR variant. LaRue has a similar sight called the QD/ LT 103, also excellent.
  I have an LMT L8A stand alone as back-up to a Leupold PGS on the A4 and a std detach carry handle on the M4. Most likely I'll get a DD 1.5 for the M4 once I place a PGS on it too.
North CarolinaSemper Gumby.....Always Flexible.

Atlas8193

  • Firearm Aficionado and Historian
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 670
  • Beware the peanut gallery...

  • Offline
Re: AR15 'carry handle' sights
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 03:15:28 PM »
Oh and yes, for those with the "5.56 is only effective out to XXX meters" ....800 meters is the maximum effective range for an area target using the 3 round burst mode..

I could never shoot at 800 with irons-even on semi. My eye sight is pretty good, but I had problems seeing the 300 yard target. I can count on one hand the number of times I hit that dang thing (at most 4). Of course, it might have been the fact that my qualification ranges usually had a thick green forest as a back drop...
Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement.-Winston Churchill


Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.