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Author Topic: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --  (Read 13129 times)

hubel585

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Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2013, 05:22:17 PM »
It is  super easy to load up or down and the 585 Minie
bullets, being lighter, are easy to shoot, cheap to shoot,
super for deer, hogs, target. And I say 58cal is where
it is at, as we are using 58cal in our new 12ga sabots.

Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here,  more 
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 
1 to 20 twist.  And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and  bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.





Here is picture, 585 FBW falling block with  Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed




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    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #26 on: January 13, 2014, 03:27:31 AM »

    Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
    Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
    of the cases and die sets.



    Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
    reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
    the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
    1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
    to .980 inch at the muzzle.



    Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
    Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
    built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
    without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
    to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
    Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
    bigger cases...Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #27 on: January 26, 2014, 09:50:38 AM »
    Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
    The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
    The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is done and gone.



    We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
    high energy subsonic, real high energy for subsonic
    1600 gr at 1050 fps. 400 ft lbs. The 585HE Whisper
     Anyone   with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
    cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
    using our case to fire subsonic  And still   fire 650gr or 750 gr
     at high speeds. Can't get  14.9 Russian cases, use ours in
    same gun  with inserts.




    Break action I like, we did on a CBC by mono-blocking a 585
    barrel, set up especially for  Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.





    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #28 on: February 08, 2014, 09:18:37 PM »
    You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
    of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
    We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
    insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
    can load from the top.



    Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
    Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
    they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
    easy like the new ones from Bertram.



    Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
    There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
    all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
    called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
    For high powered rifles average barrel pressure  run 15-18000 psi.
     
    There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
    fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

    We multiply ME times 12 and divide by  barrel cross section x length.
    We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
    For the 585 it comes out about 10

    Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

    ABP  = ( 5000 ft lbs  x 12)  divided by  (.17 sg in x 24")  =  15,000 psi

    Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big  gains, as it would take
    peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

    Now example of  585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
    a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
    but kept it all simple

    ABP  =  (7000 ft lb x 12)  divided by (.27 sg in x 26")  =  12000 psi

    The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
    a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 12:54:21 PM »
    Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
     to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
    to 1200gr, to 1600gr.



    Here  is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
    the powder settled, looks like.



    We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
    basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
    And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now
    to go with new ones we got left. One which  went on this BBK
    pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one Ruger, 2 in PHs.
    Guys have used 5 of  the new slow twist barrels. Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 02:54:13 AM »
    There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
    And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
    barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
    hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
    Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..



    Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up  for the 585HE.
    Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
    and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
     Being both use same size bore, and  in  24ga with 3" chamber I can use
    577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed  as 585HE.
    58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed



    PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
    of  1  5/8  inches, that  some guys are working on getting bigger actions
    set up to use them in. .

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #31 on: April 21, 2014, 02:37:10 AM »
    Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
    in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
    Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
    dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
    There soon will be 3 reamers there.

    And now  a company  starting to make 585 barrels there.
    I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.

    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
    allanswan at uplink.net.au. 



    WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
    wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
     own headstamp.Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #32 on: July 13, 2014, 02:46:17 AM »
    We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
    stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
    don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
    aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
    And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
    recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
     too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
    We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
    They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
    They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
    And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
    a piece of dense foam under butt pad.



     We get asked about how much speed potential we have.  And
    we start by mentioning  cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
    with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those  heavy
    powder loads with  650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
    pictured I use as one of my test guns.



    And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
    585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
    around like a weathervane.. Ed





    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #33 on: August 06, 2014, 03:09:34 AM »
    A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
    brass cases reworked  577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
    to .720"...  the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that  24ga
    plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
    of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.

    The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
    bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585",  440gr to 540gr.
    Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
    Guys on GB sells the .585"  minies. And the brass  cases, we don't have
    to wait for them to be made.



    Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
    screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
    monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #34 on: August 22, 2014, 02:36:38 AM »
    Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 the  longer one.
    Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
    Different easy usages,  24ga FH  is an easy setup in break
    actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



    Picture of  non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
    458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
    someone  pulled out,  and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
    Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit
    in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of  bottom rib,
    fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases.  A  press
     in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.



    Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452"   45cal pistol
     bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
    With  250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.



    For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
    strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
    Usually  need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
    An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts,  use rubber
    coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being 
    too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
    we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2014, 11:45:56 PM »
    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an
    extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #36 on: September 28, 2014, 04:09:57 AM »
    Here is picture of 100 cases  loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
    and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
    or wide hollowpoint. .



    Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going
    to be 585HE. In the back,  Bolt jeweling and polishing  done by the
    great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago.



    Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases
    One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt
    didn't hardly expand, Sized the top and reloaded/shot again.
    And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting
    super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys
    as a sample to show  guys the case. Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #37 on: October 15, 2014, 07:59:57 AM »
    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati  with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
     to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a  slight regression to earlier times, by  taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding
    reasonable price  rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

    Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun, 24ga,  with  458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #38 on: November 05, 2014, 07:36:20 AM »
    Here is a different look at 585 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
    Sabots hold leafd as well as jacketed.



    Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.




    Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
    here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

    The here being the US, as well as our group with barrels, dies, cases, 
    and McGowen with .585 barrels  in stock, CH4D with 585HE dies
    in stock, gunshops with # 31 shellholders.
    And later few retail outlets setup with cases in stock... . Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #39 on: December 14, 2014, 03:11:00 AM »
    Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
    PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places  14.5
    cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
    being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
    like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

    And in a PTRD with almost a  5 foot long barrel  can get 650gr
    spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
    3 times as much powder. 3300 fps.  Or get a 900gr at 2800.
    Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
    where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
    steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.



    I  like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
    Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
    cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
    inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
    Ruger 77 handle, one on  the right . Something even a novice
    like me can do.....



    A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
    ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint  can range in weight 450gr
    to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
    585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed




    HiVelSword

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #40 on: December 14, 2014, 01:18:22 PM »






    Those rounds look vicious. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!!!  :D
    To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

    "You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #41 on: December 31, 2014, 08:24:13 PM »
    For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
    here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds  .451/.452" light
    bullets 225 to 300 gr.  A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
    but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
    with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
    in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about
    mach 4 with a top load..



    Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
    It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
    sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of  .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
    7th blanks on bottom are straight  1.375"  585 regular twist blanks.
    One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #42 on: January 27, 2015, 03:10:13 PM »
    Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
    It is .585" diameter and  650 gr and these particular ones are a
    hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
    hard as copper jacketed softs. These have a flat base, and
    fairly streamlined..



    But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
    can be soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
    of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
    Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #43 on: February 13, 2015, 06:34:34 PM »
    In  Canada there are 3 guys there now setting up 585HEs,
    and one setting up 24ga FH. Another friend setting up a 585HE
    handed out a bunch of cases and info sheets at the SCI convention.
    We are getting some more reamers made. Some more dies sent
     here. Another pallet load of cases  coming.

    Here is picture  of a light spitzer bullet in the 24ga FH case,
    will work in 585 also. Good for hunting and medium range
    target work.



    Here is picture of 585HE we did in the FBW with regular two
    piece stock.We put a tenon on the forearm to wedge into the
    front of the action below the barrel and a tight barrel band
    on the front. Ed




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #44 on: March 02, 2015, 05:17:13 AM »
    Here is comparison of our 585HE and Trex case, and while
    we have barrels of cases and more coming and many available
    in stock in AUS, many are finding Trex cases scarce...



    Here is picture of a neat falling block that could work for our
    585HE with little work, the Wickcliff.




    Here is picture of the singlestack mag box we built for Enfields
    fitted to the bottom of BBK action.Very little changing and
    it fits a lot of different actions, as a fixed magazine, with its
    own feed lips,and we load from the top.Ed





    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #45 on: March 02, 2015, 10:42:27 AM »
    Nice work.  I was not familiar with the Wickliff.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #46 on: March 25, 2015, 06:00:32 AM »
    Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
    singleshot test gun.  We used a composite stock we
    adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
     Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.



    And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
    just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.

    Here is one reason to like 585 calibers is bullet varieties,
    this picture is only about half the bullets and slugs
    we know of, and most can easily found. Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #47 on: April 21, 2015, 09:29:43 AM »
    There is  couple 585 videos  on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

    Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1,  that was done in Australia.It was  set up

    for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the

    first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

    go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

    https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


    Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

    style of a CZ stock, that a guy is setting up. The stock  will be finished brown

    and metal finished with a Gun Kote finish...Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #48 on: June 14, 2015, 01:59:45 PM »
    One of  first  modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2,  the 575 Miller Greiss Magnum,
    was first mentioned in the fifties,  It was made from BMG brass shortened  to 2.70" long
    and necked up from 50 cal to .585" actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
    to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

    They rebated the rim quite a ways to .618" to maybe  fit 98 Mauser bolt.
    Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as 
    shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
    a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case,  where our 585HE holds
    180gr under a 750gr'.

    We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
    and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
    and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when
    guys did big wildcats they took what was available, to rework, and maybe back then
    they could have used the 3" spotter case,  by shortening the neck,
    if they could have found  couple barrels full.

    But it takes a lot of work to reform cases that much, with the multiple dies,
    multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
    which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular,  long bolt action,
    falling block, break action, etc, a  585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
    and moderate loads, last forever..

    For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
    (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from a tripod, and could be put in a favorite,
    of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
     To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case
    wildcatted  to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
    with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

    Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #49 on: July 06, 2015, 03:52:28 AM »
    Probably  first 375 caliber cartridge made from  585HE necked down,  the 375 Warlord.

    Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.

    Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.

    First notice of the case  sent to me  today off of a guys facebook.





    Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE  to maybe 2.4",  for use Marlins and Henrys,

    and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.

    Without a rim that takes up space in a levergun action, say like our rimmed 24ga FH, a 585 bore,

    but which is perfect with that rim for break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed


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