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Author Topic: 25-45 Sharps  (Read 3870 times)

Deathrider1579

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25-45 Sharps
« on: September 23, 2013, 10:26:07 AM »
Basically the .257 roberts from what the write up says.

http://www.gunsandtactics.com/shooting-the-25-45-sharps-cartridge

http://www.gunsandtactics.com/black-forge-weapons-and-the-25-45-sharps

Looks interesting, not that anything has a chance of supplanting the .223/5.56 round in the .mil / LEO universe.
"If we don't fight as radicals for our liberty, eventually we will have none."-sqlbullet
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Plebian

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
What exactly is the point of the round? 87 grain .257 bullets have horrible BC, slightly better than 55 grain .224 bullets by the slimmest margins. It would seem to me that the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 rounds are better in almost every category of comparison over both the 5.56 and 25-45 Sharps.

Perhaps the .033 inches of increased bullet diameter makes this 25-45 Sharps lethality just leaps and bounds better than the 5.56. Somehow I do not believe that is the case.
Oklahoma"So I assume you have read the job description?" Me.
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JesseL

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 11:15:29 AM »
I guess someone looked at the field of AR cartridges intended to improve on 5.56 and decided that the fact that .257" had been neglected among all the other standard bore sizes between .224 and .308 (.243", .264", .277", & .284") was an egregious oversight rather than a deliberate omission.
Arizona

Plebian

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »
I guess someone looked at the field of AR cartridges intended to improve on 5.56 and decided that the fact that .257" had been neglected among all the other standard bore sizes between .224 and .308 (.243", .264", .277", & .284") was an egregious oversight rather than a deliberate omission.

 :hmm               Seems as likely a story as any other I can think of at the moment.  :D
Oklahoma"So I assume you have read the job description?" Me.
"Yeah. Where is the lab I will be working in?" Applicant.
"This is a field tech job. You will be in the field." Me.
"Oh. I am afraid of the water and cannot swim." Applicant.
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Deathrider1579

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 12:03:03 PM »
I said it was interesting, I didn't say it was particularly useful.   :neener
"If we don't fight as radicals for our liberty, eventually we will have none."-sqlbullet
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." -Yeats

JesseL

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 12:23:07 PM »
I'm mildly offended by the crassly commercial use of the Sharps appellation for a cartridge that isn't really suited to hunting bison.

I do wonder how it would run with a load of FFg driving a paper patched bullet though.  :hmm
Arizona

Mississippi556

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 12:55:24 PM »
Sounds like a solution for a non-existent problem.  If one of the other larger bore variants on the .223 case is not sufficient for the task, why think that the quarter bore will work magic?

Personally, I have some attraction to 6mm bullets and really like those little 55 grain Nosler BT's in my 6mm Remington varmint rifle (almost 4,100 fps sub MOA grenades), but, I've never given any consideration to the 6x45, so why the .257 variation?   Marketing hype.

The only  AR15 variation I thought worthy for my use was the 30RAR, and look how that turned out, even after the big, but short-lived initial push by Remington.

And I COMPLETELY agree with the "mildly offended" comment about commercial hijacking of the Sharps name and reputation.

Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).


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coelacanth

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 04:43:14 PM »
Well, as usual, you have all summed it up very nicely without need for further input from me.   :cool    I would point out, though, that the claim for the .257 Roberts , ".  .  .   being the most popular hunting cartridge in America for many years." is huge load of crap.    Let your "me too!"  wannabe  latest AR fad cartridge live or die on its own merits  without  dragging the certifiable genius of Christian Sharps or Ned Roberts into the mud with you.   :scrutiny
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 

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Plebian

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 07:36:46 PM »
Yeah. The 257 Roberts/+p was and still is an awesome round. It is an almost ideal deer rifle for much of the plains states IMO. It being super duper popular is a big ole fib for sure.

I was getting a slight chubby over the thoughts I had when I seen the title of the post. I was seeing a big sharps round loaded with smokeless and necked down to 25 caliber. Then I all deflated when I read what it really was.
Oklahoma"So I assume you have read the job description?" Me.
"Yeah. Where is the lab I will be working in?" Applicant.
"This is a field tech job. You will be in the field." Me.
"Oh. I am afraid of the water and cannot swim." Applicant.
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JesseL

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 08:02:17 PM »
Quote
The 25-45 Sharps is a new caliber, based on the the popular hunting cartridge, the .257 Roberts. Developed in the 1920′s and commercially introduced in 1934, the .257 Roberts became the most popular hunting cartridge in North America for many years. Now, the cartridge has been re-introduced as the 25-45 Sharps,

Quote
The .25-45 Sharps was developed from the .257 Roberts,

I feel the need to comment on what utter bulls___ this marketingspeak is.

The .24-45 may have been inspired by the ballistic capabilities of the .257 Roberts, but they're going out of their way to imply that the new cartridge is actually physically derived from the old .257 Bob in some way.

In reality it's a necked up .223 - right down to the shoulder location and angle.

Ballistically it seems to fall short of the Roberts too - it appears to max out at 87 grains and can push that to just over 3000 fps. The .257 Roberts can handle 117 grains and still exceed 3000 fps with 100 grain pills.

It wouldn't be any less accurate to claim that they've slightly improved the .25-35 WCF.
Arizona

Grant

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2013, 09:49:26 PM »
  I would say that at ONE TIME the .257 Roberts was pretty danged popular, that is as was any necked/rimless cartridge in the 1940's/early 50's.

 
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coelacanth

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2013, 10:09:54 PM »
The 250/3000 Savage was easily as popular as the "Bob" and so was the .25 Newton or the .25 Niedner ( or the .25/06 as it is known today ) which predated the .257 Roberts by a decade or more and was a superior round to either at that time.  I defy anyone to cite a year in which any .25 caliber round was more popular than the .30-30 Winchester or the 30/06 Springfield, either in terms of loaded ammunition or reloading supplies and equipment sold. 
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 

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Mississippi556

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 01:12:51 PM »
Might be moving a little off topic, so forgiveness sought.   The " Bob" .257 Roberts lost popularity for another reason:  The case size is an odd length. It is made on the excellent 7x57 Mauser case.   So is the 6mm Remington. 

This is a mid-size case, as far as length is concerned.   It will not work through a short action bolt gun.  Too long.  A regular full length standard action rifle is unnecessarily long, heavier and has longer bolt travel, and wasted magazine space.

There are only a few rifle manufacturers who continued to make bolt guns with a so-called mid-length action.  I have a rifle built on a SAKO L-579 action, a true mid-length action.  It is chambered in 6mm Remington (actually barrel stamped .244 Rem). The action is long enough to handle the 7x57 class of cases, without being heavier and having longer bolts and longer magazine well and magazine as would a full length standard action.   

These are no longer popular, due to the proliferation of short action rounds that perform just about as well, or perhaps better sometimes, especially the short action magnums which seemed to be in vogue for a while.

There are real advantages to these mid-length rounds.  They have the higher efficiency of the short action rounds, like .308, .243, .260, but have higher powder capacity and therefore greater velocity potential, especially when hand loaded.   But the x57 cased rounds seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle.  Pity.
Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

strangelittleman

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 01:28:10 PM »
To me it looks like the performance of the round is much closer to the .250-3,000 Savage than the .257 Roberts, with it's 87 gr projectile @ 3,000 fps.
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JesseL

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 01:28:28 PM »
You can make the mid length round work in a short action (I don't think Remington has ever offered the .244/6mm in anything but a short action), but you do lose some flexibility due to the inability to seat long/heavy bullets as far out as they ought to be to take full advantage of their case capacity.

Here are the 6mm Rem and the .308 Win from my desk collection. The OAL is pretty danged close with the 6mm just a couple mm longer.
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Mississippi556

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 03:31:28 PM »
Yep, you can, but COL limitations, as you say, really do adversely impact the ability to take advantage of the case capacity with heavy bullets.

Actually, Remington loaded and still loads the factory .244/6mm Remington rounds so that they work in a short action receiver.  But in doing so, they severely undermine the benefit of the larger case.  Yet another example of Big Green having shot themselves in the foot.  Handloads in a longer action with the bullets seated further out can substantially improve on factory velocity depending on the load.  It becomes more pronounced with heavier bullets.

Same issue with the venerable 7x57, particularly with the long 175 grain bullet that made the round famous in Mauser long actions.  I'm not sure the 7x57 ever got chambered in the short action Model 722 or Model 7 Remingtons, because industry standard maximum overall cartridge length had already been set at a number higher than Remington's short action receiver and magazine could handle.
Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

coelacanth

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 11:14:15 PM »
There was very little the .257 Roberts could do that the .243 Winchester couldn't in a true short action cartridge.  The .25/06 bested it on the upper end of the scale and the .243 Winchester bested it on the lower end so it just faded from the scene except for a few diehard fans.

The "Bob" was and is a very good medium game cartridge.  It was capable, efficient and pretty forgiving for handloaders but it is an unlikely parent for a new AR 15 "wunderkind" like the 25-45 Sharps.   The 6.5 Grendel is as good or better than it could ever hope to be and is already an established round with factory ammo available.  I predict the .25-45 Sharps will become a game winning answer to "gun shop trivia" in relatively short order.
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 

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akodo

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 08:11:30 PM »
I'm mildly offended by the crassly commercial use of the Sharps appellation for a cartridge that isn't really suited to hunting bison.

I do wonder how it would run with a load of FFg driving a paper patched bullet though.  :hmm

here here!

If it's going to carry the name Sharps it belongs first and foremost in a single shot rifle of some kind.

only1asterisk

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 10:41:04 AM »
I'm mildly offended by the crassly commercial use of the Sharps appellation for a cartridge that isn't really suited to hunting bison.

I do wonder how it would run with a load of FFg driving a paper patched bullet though.  :hmm


The real 25-45 Sharps:


HiVelSword

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 11:06:21 AM »
I'm mildly offended by the crassly commercial use of the Sharps appellation for a cartridge that isn't really suited to hunting bison.

My sentiments exactly. I see the name "Sharps" and I think Bison, Buffalo and Creedmore sights.

Oh, and of course, Quigly.
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

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akodo

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2013, 11:50:45 PM »
You can make the mid length round work in a short action (I don't think Remington has ever offered the .244/6mm in anything but a short action), but you do lose some flexibility due to the inability to seat long/heavy bullets as far out as they ought to be to take full advantage of their case capacity.

Here are the 6mm Rem and the .308 Win from my desk collection. The OAL is pretty danged close with the 6mm just a couple mm longer.

Jesse,

What do you know about the action length of the Remington 700's ancestor, the 722 (from 222 to 257 Bob) and the 721 (270 win, 30-06, and similar)?

The 308 was designed 10 years before the Remington 700.  Is it a case where the 'old' short action by many gun makers was a little bit longer, but once the 308 came on the field and become so popular so quick that it defined what was going to be considered the short action from then on?

I know that Sako used to sell just actions, and these were available in 5 lengths.  #1 was for 222 and 223 length cartridges, an extra-short if you will. #2 was standard short action #3 was midsize 7x57mm and kin #4 was standard (30-06 length) and #5 was 'magnum' length (real magnum 375 H&H long, many of the cartridges we associate with magnum like the 338 winmag are actually sized to fit the standard length action

akodo

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2013, 12:01:11 AM »
The 250/3000 Savage was easily as popular as the "Bob" and so was the .25 Newton or the .25 Niedner ( or the .25/06 as it is known today ) which predated the .257 Roberts by a decade or more and was a superior round to either at that time.  I defy anyone to cite a year in which any .25 caliber round was more popular than the .30-30 Winchester or the 30/06 Springfield, either in terms of loaded ammunition or reloading supplies and equipment sold.

Yes, neither the 250/3000 nor the quarter bob were as popular as the 30-30 or 30-06.    That doesn't mean they weren't popular.  The 30-30 and the 30-06 have at different times held the #1 spot while the other held the #2 spot in popularity, and then switched with each other.  Trying to define what is a popular cartridge by finding some that are more popular than these two is flawed.

I have no doubt there was a time when either or both the 250 Savage and the 257 Roberts were in the top 10.

Quote
There was very little the .257 Roberts could do that the .243 Winchester couldn't in a true short action cartridge.  The .25/06 bested it on the upper end of the scale and the .243 Winchester bested it on the lower end so it just faded from the scene except for a few diehard fans.

I agree that the 25-06 can do more than the 257 Roberts.  However, the 243 is no elk cartridge, nor a good black bear cartridge even with it's heaviest loads.  The 257 Roberts is a fine black bear cartridge and does good on elk provided you are keeping the range limited, and does it all with very mild recoil. 

I don't agree with the folks that say it, but many people say the 243 isn't enough for whitetail if you happen to find a monster buck.  (I'd be more inclined to say that same thing about the 223, not the 243)  With it's record on elk, no one claims the quarter bob can't drop the world's biggest white tail buck.

I think the average hunter right now would be probably best suited by some sort of 25 caliber cartridge using a 308 body.  But then, look at how poorly the great little 260 Remington fared.  Everyone who recognized it's virtues probably already owned a couple 6.5x57 rifles and anyone who would recognize the virtue of a 25-08 probably already owns a couple 250 savages, bobs, or 25-06s.

coelacanth

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2013, 03:28:49 AM »
Fair enough.   I don't claim to be the definitive expert on the subject, just someone who has had more than a passing interest in hunting rifles since the 1960's.   I was speaking more to the claim made by the developer of the 25-45 Sharps than to any objective measure of popularity for the various cartridges.   We have had a national love affair with the .30 caliber since long before I was born regardless which flavor you choose and I had graduated high school before I ever saw a .257 Roberts in person.  Its a fine round and the rifles that chamber it are generally a joy to handle and shoot but on its best day it really never approached the widespread appeal of the .30 calibers, contrary to the claim made in the advertising copy for the 25-45 Sharps.

I agree that the "Bob" is a superior cartridge to the .243 Winchester on elk sized animals but if I were afield after elk I wouldn't pick either caliber as my first choice.  Likewise for black bear - neither cartridge is ideal for heavily muscled animals even if the shot is placed at relatively close range with surgical precision.  The .243 Winchester was and is capable of handling any deer sized game providing you choose the proper bullet and operate within the cartridge's limitations.  It is a flatter shooting round with slightly better ballistics until you get to the 90 - 100 grain bullets where the .257 Roberts begins to overtake it.   Both are efficient cartridges and the difference between them on a well placed shot is primarily academic IMO.

I believe the .25-08 was called the .25 Souper back in the day and yes, it is apparently a very good wildcat but none of the .25's are as popular as I think they deserve to be.  They have long been overshadowed by the .270's and the various 6.5's and 7mm's.  The .257 Weatherby is as close to a "death ray" as I know with 115-120 grain Nosler Partitions but the .270 Winchester probably outsells it 10 to 1 .  Go figure.   :shrug

   
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Mississippi556

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2013, 08:29:04 AM »
Well said.  For some reason, there is a gap in my gun collection between 6mm and 7mm.  I never saw any reason to get into the .25's at all (or even .270, although I reload that for friends).  If I want light bullets and hyper velocity I go down to 6mm.  If I want heavier bullets and flatter trajectory than .30 cal. for similar weight, I go 7mm (either .280 or 7 Rem Mag.

I still see no reason.

Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

coelacanth

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Re: 25-45 Sharps
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2013, 01:30:20 AM »
Two of the best shooting rifles I have ever personally fired were owned by the same guy who would not part with either of them.  Selfish clod.   :doh    One was a .25/06 built on a post war FN Mauser action with a Timney trigger, a 24" Douglas barrel, and an old Weaver K6 that refused to die.   The man could shoot that rifle into one hole all day long at 100 yards and took an impressive amount of game with it.  That rifle even made me look like a marksman.   The other was nearly identical except for the stock and scope but chambered for the 6.5/06.  It was the older rifle of the two and had a Kahles scope on it, which I had never heard of at the time but if anything it would outshoot the .25/06 especially at long range.  He referred to it as his "mountain gun" and routinely put rounds into tight cloverleafs at 200 yards.   I got to shoot that one as well and it was an object of lust for a long time.     He kept them both because, according to him, he never found any other rifle which would outshoot either of them and couldn't make up his mind which one he liked best.  Neither rifle had the recoil or the muzzle blast of the .270 Winchester and both were pretty much a one shot, DRT proposition in his hands.   Ever since then I've had a lot of respect for those two calibers.  At this point my hunting collection doesn't have either of them represented but you never know - maybe someday.   ;)
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 

            Robert A. Heinlein , "Friday"


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