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Author Topic: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.  (Read 6969 times)

RMc

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Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 07:31:05 PM »
Here is a very interesting article on loading the .44 Special to a 25,000 psi MAP in the Ruger Flattop/New Vaquero frame size.  Including 200 grain JHP bullets in the .44 Special

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ruger%20Lipsey%2044%20Special.pdf
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    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 09:17:33 PM »
      Cool, thanks.     


        I'm a big fan of Brain Pearce.  He's got good tastes in handguns and knows his stuff when it comes to them.

       That flat-top .44 is still there......I'm NOT going to....but it's tempting to credit card it and let it build up the $24 worth of interest until it's paid off.......it'd still be a good price  :cool 
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    sqlbullet

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 10:43:59 PM »
    I like it.  I have always had a soft spot for the .4X specials.  And I really need to renew my subscription to handloader.
    Utah

    RMc

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 10:45:43 AM »
    Grant,

    This article was quite an eye opener on the subject of handgun loads for hunting.  Take a look at the comparisons of power and trajectory with wide-meplat lead bullets loaded to approximately 1100 fps.

    Bottom line, at ranges under 75 yards, 1100 fps is enough to get the job done without ear-splitting noise or excessive recoil.

    Let me know what you think about this approach.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View

    By J. Marshall Stanton

    http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61
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    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #29 on: November 08, 2015, 02:23:51 PM »
       I agree completely.     

    I've seen deer shot with standard SWCs (NOT truncated cones that are becoming common, but flat-nosed wadcutters with the flat grooved "lip" just above the crimping groove) and it will knock them down as good as any slow-moving round.   

      I mean heck, I shot a deer with a .40 S&W with 155 grain XTP's. There were factory fiocchi's and upon later chronographing were barely moving over a thousand FPS.   They didn't expand, but performed EXACTLY the same on the deer as my .40 bullets that have expanded, my .41 magnum, .44 magnum XTP's,etc.    Placement is most important.

       
      I plan on upgrading to 260 keith style hardcasts and loading them to about 1050FPS, economical to load, easy-shooting and quiet(er) than a flame-spitter.   That'll be my 99% shot .44 magnum load, my .44 specials will still be a 240 hardcast at around 960.

       
       That said.....I'm still going to have hot-rodded rounds available too.   I just need to do a LOT of tweaking to try and get my JHP's to hit the same as my hardcasts.   tried a few 5-round lots of various stuff and I can't seem to accomplish that.....Found some new loading data that I can use the same powder for both hardcast and jacketed, I'm hoping that will work.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #30 on: November 16, 2015, 09:26:30 AM »
    Yes, the extra case capacity is almost certainly the cause of the velocity being lower than you expected.

    As for your POI concerns-

    You can( and I do) drive HARDCAST slugs much faster than 1,000 assuming they are of the correct alloy and size.  So don't be scared to bump it up a bit and see if that helps.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #31 on: November 18, 2015, 12:13:06 AM »
           I contacted Accurate as well and they gave me some load data with the powder I was using (Accurate#5) for jacketed bullets.  I haven't had a chance, but I'm thinking the 13.5-15 grain charge for jacketed bullets may bring POI closer than the 27 grain charge of 4227 I was using.

    I dunno, all part of the fun  :cool   Using carbide dies on straight wall handgun cases is so much easier than belted rifle cases that I actually enjoy the tinkering.

      My hardcasts are supposedly 15BHN and the website says they can be loaded up to 1500FPS without fear of leading.  I dunno about that, but I probably will bump it up a wee bit. 
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #32 on: December 17, 2015, 08:07:57 AM »
    Quote
    Found some new loading data that I can use the same powder for both hardcast and jacketed, I'm hoping that will work.

    That is almost always the case, even though some powders show a preference for one or the other. As a general rule you just run about 3-5 percent less powder behind the jacketed slug of the same weight as it's hardcast counterpart to get the same velocity.  Just be careful, and use a chrono.

    EDIT-  IME- AA5 has proven to be a great powder in 40 S&W loads, and one of the top 5 powders I've used for mid-range 41 and 44 mag loads.  With 41 mag, my favorite powders are blue dot with anything at or under 210 grains, and 2400 for the beartooth type heavies.  With 44 mag, I prefer N110 or 296 for jacketed loads, 2400 for cast loads.  If you are truly after a solid reliable 1,100fps/250gr 44 mag load, that AA5 should be running just hard enough to burn really clean for you as long as the accuracy is there in your particular gun.
    « Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 08:22:35 AM by THE NORSEMAN »
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #33 on: December 18, 2015, 08:27:34 PM »
         I picked up a pound of Unique today, just because I wanted to try it and it was only $19.97, haven't seen a pound of that for a few years and thought I'd tinker with it.

        AA5 has worked good for me, groups seem to stay around that 2-2.5" mark, and I'm up to 11 grains (still way down off of max), the powder is burning WAY cleaner than the 9.5 grain loads.     I'm up to 980FPS with that, I think my next loading evening I'm going to load up 11.6 grains of AA#5 and call it good, still below the max that Accurate-powders sent me (12.8 grains is max), and should be running that 1050-1100FPS range.

         I'm going to fiddle a bit with jacketed bullets, but I'm spoiled with the low cost of lead  :cool   Got some H110 and plan on getting some Accurate #9 and Win296 as well.       

       
       I have 2400 but...only 3/4 of a pound and it is IMPOSSIBLE....to find.  period.  I find other suitable powders like H110, A#9,etc. but haven't seen any 2400 for probably 3 years around here.    I'm hoarding my precious........

        Been loading up some .357 with 180 hardcasts using A#5, going right at 1,000FPS.  Accuracy ain't real great so I'll do some tweaking with it.

       Loaded up some 38/44 loads using once-fired Federal brass, also A#5.  158hardcasts at around 980FPS.   Shoot damn near one-hole groups at 25 yards in my guns.   


    My loads seem a bit smoky but I think it's the bullet lube, one reason I got the unique to try, just to see if it changes at all.

    Edit:   They had some blue dot come in today and was going to get some, but a guy got the last 2 cans just as I went to get some other stuff  :cool   Must not be a bad powder, the store said they had 15 pounds come in and it was gone within about 4 hours. 
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #34 on: December 20, 2015, 10:27:06 AM »
    Blue dot?  I buy it in the 5 pound kegs........  ;)  Those little 1lb cans don't last long enough to be worth the hassle.........

    Quote
    Been loading up some .357 with 180 hardcasts using A#5, going right at 1,000FPS.  Accuracy ain't real great so I'll do some tweaking with it.
      180 grain slugs?  Who is the caster/maker?   I assume you're near the top of the charge chart for this combo?

    For that matter, and getting back to the thread title anyway, who's cast slugs are you using in your 44?  Have you checked your cylinder throat diameters vs. your bullet diameters in either caliber?

    You'll probably find that that Ruger will shoot slugs sized at .431 more accurately, and MUCH cleaner, than slugs sized at .429.  The .429 size seems to be the most common size available, I have to look for the .431 ones pretty hard, or order them cast to that size when necessary.
    « Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:41:24 AM by THE NORSEMAN »
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #35 on: December 20, 2015, 12:06:51 PM »
      I'm loading .430 in my .44 magnum.  I could order them .431, however after about 450 rounds I've noticed zero leading, and in my hands, the accuracy is about as good as I can expect.  It may help with not igniting the lube however?  I'm not sure.    My .357 bullets are .358.

      The max load in that .357 is 8 grains of A#5 with a 187 grain hardcast so I'm a shade under using my 7.6 grain charge in a smidgeon lighter bullet. 
     
     
      All my hardcasts are from rimrockbullets.net .   Been pleased thus far with seeming consistant, and no leading (so far).     We used to get bullets from goingballistic, but they don't have a website no longer, and don't attend the gunshows I go to either.


      As far as powder, I may try and get together enough for a large order, but hazmat makes prices go up.  And there's nowhere around to get 5 pounders.  Well....there is, but it's more expensive than 5X1 pounders at most places  :rotfl
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    cpaspr

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #36 on: December 20, 2015, 02:14:07 PM »
    Grant -

    Back in the early 60s my dad settled on 6.5gr of Unique under a Lyman 429383 cast bullet for his .44 Special.  It's allegedly around a 245gr round nose bullet.  He experimented with 1-20, 1-30 and 1-40 tin to lead mixes, but from looking at his reloading notebooks it appears he used all three and never settled on a preference.  His notes say it was an accurate load.  I've shot it, and my memory says the recoil was not particularly heavy.
    _________________

    Regarding powder orders and hazmat fees, the larger the order, the less the hazmat fees raise the per pound cost.  Right now Powder Valley (www.powdervalleyinc.com) has in stock the following that you apparently use:
    AA#5 in 1# bottles for $19.65 each;
    IMR4227 for $23.20 for 1# or $165 for 8#
    H110 for $19.40 for 1# or $142.50 for 8#
        (They're actually looking pretty good on a lot of IMR and Hodgdon powders.)

    A friend of mine has been known to get a bunch of fellow reloaders together and place one big order (right now they're limiting orders to 48# of powder and primers per person per day.  I roughed out a 48# order of 6 IMR 4227 8-pounders.  Hazmat was $28.50 and insurance was $4.50.  So that comes out to $21.31/# after hazmat and insurance (but before shipping costs) compared to $20.625/# for just the powder alone.  Doesn't seem too pricey.  Of course, I have no idea what the UPS or FedEx fees would be, so you'll need to factor that in if considering a large bulk order.

    « Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 02:36:35 PM by cpaspr »
    Oregon

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #37 on: December 20, 2015, 11:29:07 PM »
      Appreciate it :thumbup1     I hope to get 3-4 guys together and make a worthwhile order.

    And that website looks a bit better than the ones I had planned on dealing with,.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #38 on: December 26, 2015, 11:41:28 PM »
      Just a mild update in case someone tries it:

      Got to try other revolvers but I'm thinking my .357 Bisley (Uberti replica that was a gift), ain't the most accurate.....Tweak some loads and find out.

     Anyway, my heavy .38's shoot adequately (3"@25 yards).   But my 180 hardcast in front of Accurate #5 just don't seem to live up (4.5" groups about).

      Got a pound of Accurate #9 that will let me step up the load's speed, while keeping pressure's down, and velocity to around 1050-1080FPS to avoid leading.    Thinking that may help it stabilize a bit.

      Not sure...but so far it seems like the heavier the loads, the better they shoot, right up until a few grains before max, then they start spreading again.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    RMc

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #39 on: January 14, 2016, 07:07:21 PM »
    Here is another Brian Pearce article on the .44 Special - this time with different load level data:

    http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf
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    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #40 on: January 16, 2016, 01:18:13 PM »
     Thanks, I saved that  :thumbup1  Always a fan of the .44 special articles.

      I don't have any real plans for this year, but a .44 special is something I'm going to watch for.  Thinking a 4" N-frame .44 special would be a good packer.

     
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #41 on: January 18, 2016, 02:16:04 PM »
      Bumped up my hardcast .44 load to 11.6 grains of AA #5, chronographed it going at 1095-1120FPS.  Pretty big boost for only .6 grains addition.    But it seems like #5 starts curving up pretty sharply about there.. 

    Starting to get light leading in my barrel, going to see how it goes, it seemed "BAD" after 6 shots, but another 40 rounds and it seemed about the same.     I shot 5 rounds of jacketed over a chronograph and it cleaned the barrel slick so I couldn't tell how badly it was leading up.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #42 on: January 24, 2016, 01:08:08 PM »
    Quote
    Starting to get light leading in my barrel
       Where?  Back by the forcing cone, or up near the muzzle?  If it's starting right back by the forcing cone, and you aren't using a gas checked bullet? It's most likely caused by a combination of a too small bullet and/or too hard of an alloy.

    That's what most folks run into.

    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Grant

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    Re: +P .44 special loads/powders questions.
    « Reply #43 on: January 24, 2016, 10:50:53 PM »
     Yeah I was worrying about.....nothing I think.   I fired another 40 rounds and there has been no extra buildup whatsoever.    it's full length of the barrel, and I think it may be excess lube?   I can scrape it off with a toothpick so it isn't lead.

        I'm slightly OCD about my guns and stuff so I overthink things   :panic

     
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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