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Author Topic: 650 or 1050  (Read 1627 times)

sqlbullet

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650 or 1050
« on: February 24, 2016, 04:35:31 PM »
Let me start with the problem:



That is about 40K rounds of 7.62 NATO once fired that needs to be decapped, sized, swaged and trimmed.

I have been running on single stage presses for the first 2K rounds and have determined that I will NOT live long enough to process this brass in a one-pull, one operation fashion.  On press swaging is a big consideration which pretty much leaves us with Dillon.

Super 1050

The Super 1050 equipped with a rapid trim and carbide dies will run me about $2,350 with shipping.  This would allow me to process about 1K rounds an hour.  It is clearly the choice for this job.

But, when I am done it is probably overkill for my ongoing reloading needs.  I can't seem myself buying dedicated tool-heads for each caliber I load, eight and counting.  That would leave me fiddling with powder bars and dies at each caliber change going forward and in many cases probably just giving up and leaving it set up only for my highest volume cartridges.  Or having it suck down another $1500 on tool heads.

I could sell it when finished with the current task.  I am heartened that I can't find any used in good condition as it appears there is a strong market for them used.  But it also means I am having a hard time gauging what I could sell one for with 40K miles on the odometer.

XL650

The XL650 base model lacks several features with which the 1050 ships.  Most egregiously an on press primer pocket swaging system.  More on that in a bit.

If I add the Dillon accessories to bring it up to par, less a factory swaging system, I am at $1530 delivered.  There is a product call the SwageIt (swageit.com) that is a bolt on solution to primer pocket swaging for the 650, though apparently it's use constitutes BS and invalidates the no BS warranty. The SwageIt adds another $129 to the price for a grand total of $1660.

Based on my reading, changing dies on the 650 is even more challenging than the same process on the 1050, but 650 tool heads are a downright affordable $108 including a powderfeed.  Drop that to about $30 without a powder feed.  So, when I give up die changing and get a tool head for each, only out another $700.

The two major drawbacks for me to the 650 are that if I break it running 40K swages on a system not designed for a swage, I get to buy a new $600 press.  At that point I would be in cost parity with the 1050.  Second, since the swage occurs on the down stroke, I will undoubtedly have the occasional brass that sneaks through without a proper swage.  If I were keeping the brass that would not bother me.  But I plan to sell the brass, and it will bug me to know there is a defect rate that could have been corrected.

Advice needed

So, advise me.  Is there some panacea that I am overlooking that makes one of these options a clearly better choice in my application than the other?  Anyone have experience with die changes on a 1050 without a quick change tool head?  Other thoughts or obvious statements of my idiocy?

--Edit:  I should add that I am leaning towards the 1050, despite the cost diff.  Seems like I could recoup much of that if I decided later it was overkill.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:48:34 PM by sqlbullet »
Utah

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bignate88

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2016, 05:12:33 PM »
it seems to me that the 1050 better suits your needs.

why on earth are you decapping sizing trimming and swagging 40k pieces of 7.62? :shocked
IllinoisThere’s a story about a turtle and a scorpion. Scorpion is stranded on a river bank. Turtle sees this and asks Scorpion to get on his back and he’ll take him across the river. Scorpion gets on Turtle’s back and they go into the river. When they’re about halfway across, Scorpion stings Turtle. As Turtle is sinking, knowing they’re both going to die, he asks Scorpion "Why did you sting me, we’re both going to die?" and Scorpion says "It’s not my fault; it’s what I am."

MTK20

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2016, 07:08:33 PM »
The man has a squirrel problem...  :coffee A big one...  :coffee.
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Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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only1asterisk

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2016, 09:34:05 PM »
1050 all day, every day.


StevenTing

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 12:22:30 PM »
So, let me help you out a little bit.

Go to Grafs.com and send me a list of all of the Part Numbers that you need.
I'll get you a quote and try and save you some money off the $2350 that you're seeing.

I've got my new dealer account setup and want to start taking care of my WTA people.
Utah

only1asterisk

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 06:20:51 PM »
.
1050 all day, every day.

I should qualify: In your specific circumstances..
The 650 is a fine machine, but while it might suffice, the 1050 is made for what you need. 

I might even look into automation is this is something you are going to be doing.  You can prep a bunch of brass with a 1050 and a treadmill. 

Outbreak

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 12:44:22 PM »
I own a 650. I love it for handgun ammo. It will do everything a 1050 will except swaging, and will do it very nicely. Changing calibers is a 15 minute affair, at most; longer if you don't have a dedicated powder-measure for each toolhead.

Swaging primer pockets is a problem for me, too. I bought a Dillon Super Swage, did the common mods (available all over youtube) to make it quicker, and it's way faster than trying to do it on a single-stage press. I still don't like it, but I can't justify the 1050.

You're spot on with the resale value of a 1050. People want all Dillon presses, and you almost never find anything from Dillon used.

Here's what I would do in your position.

Buy a 1050. Swage, size, trim all that brass. When you're done, load as much as you can, in every caliber. Just load all your components for a caliber, then swap the dies (not the toolhead; that thing is like $200), repeat. Get everything you have a solid load for loaded. It won't take long and it makes sense to use the top-of-the-line press while you have it.

Then sell the 1050, and caliber kits, but keep the trimmer and dies.

Use some of the proceeds from the sale to buy a 650 with all the bells and whistles, several toolheads and caliber change kits. If you don't load at least 1000/year in a certain caliber, don't buy toolheads or kits for it.

Buy one spare toolhead. This will be your case prep head. On this one, mount a universal decapper in station 1, trimmer/sizer in station 3 or 4, and that's it. It'll be used for all your rifle brass. Tumble brass, run through prep head. Once it's been through, tumble it again to get rid of the trimming debris (I plan to wet-tumble here, to get the primer pockets and flashholes.) then back into the case-feeder. Then put in your normal loading toolhead (size/deprime, prime, charge, powder check, seat bullet, crimp bullet) and get your ammo factory rollin!

Now, if you have the opportunity to get that kind of brass again, or on a recurring basis, keep the 1050. You can keep processing brass and sell what you don't need. The money you get from the brass sales can be used to buy those [ridiculously expensive] toolheads and caliber change kits.
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sqlbullet

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 01:08:39 PM »
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Outbreak, you are confirming independently what I was already thinking.  Of course, confirmation bias means I will weight your comments above any others.

I had the exact same thoughts.  Buy 1050, use for immediate needs, re-evaluate and sell if I don't foresee an ongoing need.  If the brass market looks good, bootstrap the cash back into growing the processing power.  First auto-drive the first one, then add additional machines until I am either processing more than I can sell, or processing more than I can buy.  This brass was purchased both to give me a good stock of 308 brass and to do a test market of processed once fired brass.

StevenTing, thanks for the quote.  If any of you guys are looking at a purchase that could come from Grafs, ping Steve and see if he can save you a buck or two.  He's  saving me some.
Utah

StevenTing

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 05:56:37 PM »
FYI, I have a dealer account and can save out of state people some good money. 


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Utah

StevenTing

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 06:33:34 PM »
Also if you decide to sell the 1050, I know some local guys in Utah that will probably buy it.  Last one sold for $1500.  If you go $1200-$1300, it will sell in a heartbeat.  I know a guy that has 4 of them right now. He processes and sells 5.56 and 300 BLK a lot.
Utah

Mikee5star

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 07:40:02 PM »
Saw a Dillion 550 for sale last week, it sold in less than 6 hours for $650.  I have seen less than 10 for sale used in the last 15 years here in  AK.  All sold before I could get get my act together.  I wish shipping was easier/cheaper.  When I last priced a Dillion press the shipping equaled 50% of the base price.

If I get a reloading room, and find some competitive shooting to participate in, a 1050 or two is the dream machine setup.  reality is a 650 and a Square D for the most common pistol cartridge.

For your need, and if cash is available, I am with Outbreak get the 1050.  It sounds like it is best tool for the price and time.  Time and space are the biggest limits on my re-loading right now.
Alaska

StevenTing

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 09:53:56 PM »

Saw a Dillion 550 for sale last week, it sold in less than 6 hours for $650.  I have seen less than 10 for sale used in the last 15 years here in  AK.  All sold before I could get get my act together.  I wish shipping was easier/cheaper.  When I last priced a Dillion press the shipping equaled 50% of the base price.

If I get a reloading room, and find some competitive shooting to participate in, a 1050 or two is the dream machine setup.  reality is a 650 and a Square D for the most common pistol cartridge.

For your need, and if cash is available, I am with Outbreak get the 1050.  It sounds like it is best tool for the price and time.  Time and space are the biggest limits on my re-loading right now.
let me see what shipping for a 550/650 is for you up there.  Doesn't hurt to ask. 
Utah

Mikee5star

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Re: 650 or 1050
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 01:05:02 PM »
Thanks Steve, but I have no money, time or space right now.  I hope to have the money and space issues taken care of in a few more months.  I think the shipping was from Dillon directly.  There is ground from Fed-Ex or UPS, can't remember which off the top of my head right now, to AK but most sellers only use air.
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