Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: The English Longbow  (Read 3990 times)

Kaso

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6327
  • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

  • Online
Re: The English Longbow
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2016, 02:59:41 PM »
As was pointed out, an unhorsed knight is more of a conversation topic than a credible threat to unarmored bowmen with the ability to outmaneuver him.  Stick a bow stave between his legs from behind and trip him and its over.  Once a fully armored knight hits the ground in the prone position he's kind of like a lobster on land. 
Didn't we have a video debunking that myth a while back?
Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
20 January 2017, 12:01pm
Here's to a great four years!

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    stephendutton

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2207
    • Is a man-eating anteater still an anteater?
      • The Hazug Files

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #26 on: September 10, 2016, 03:22:00 PM »
    Didn't we have a video debunking that myth a while back?

    I think so. I've seen several videos demonstrating the way in which an armoured knight could move.
    This seems quite a good one.

    My website is back! It features over 100 pieces of fan fiction set in the Star Trek, Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000 universes.
    http://thehazugfiles.uk/Index.htm

    stephendutton

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2207
    • Is a man-eating anteater still an anteater?
      • The Hazug Files

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #27 on: September 10, 2016, 03:24:18 PM »
    I think so. I've seen several videos demonstrating the way in which an armoured knight could move.
    This seems quite a good one.



    NOTE: I want a suit that's actually made entirely of shiny plastic so I can watch the looks on people's faces when I walk through an airport metal detector. Especially if I have a set of keys underneath to trigger it before removing them and walking through without it going off.  >:D
    My website is back! It features over 100 pieces of fan fiction set in the Star Trek, Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000 universes.
    http://thehazugfiles.uk/Index.htm

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6327
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #28 on: September 10, 2016, 03:37:06 PM »
    That's not the one I was remembering, but it is a good one.  From 1:00 to 1:12 is a short scene from the one I saw before.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    First Shirt

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 274
    • Retired zoomie intel geek

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #29 on: September 11, 2016, 07:57:53 PM »
    Now, lets see him do that after dragging his leg out from under nearly a ton of horse and armor, in the middle of a muddy field, after falling five feet or so.  Oh, and by the way, did he hang onto his sword and shield after the fall?  Cause I really don't care how agile and armored you are, a yeoman with a maul (basically just a big sledgehammer) and an attitude is going to present some problems to an unarmed opponent.
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7123
    • eccentric orbit

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #30 on: September 11, 2016, 08:50:15 PM »
    Agreed.  Once you de-horse a knight in full plate armor you've robbed him of most of his offensive capability.  Even if he retains his sword/mace and shield he is at a disadvantage against faster and more agile foes.  On foot, his visibility is compromised, his speed and agility are compromised and his stamina will begin to wane in any sort of prolonged action.  This assumes that he and his armor have not suffered any significant battle damage.  Fasteners break, retaining straps break, hinges get tweaked off true and refuse to work properly or get caked with mud and other debris and compromise mobility.  Let a yeoman get behind you with a seax and he'll take you off at the knees and give that same yeoman a halberd and I'd bet good money that an armored knight on foot would end up as a fancy shish kebab before long. 

    There was a reason that melee combat in tournaments was between men in similar armor and bearing similar weapons.  A skilled man at arms not so encumbered would likely have felled many a great knight without ceremony.

    I applaud the makers of the video for showing men of action in actual plate armor but in no instance did I see anything but rested and refreshed men conducting an experiment for the sake of discussion.  I also did not see anyone spending any prolonged period in that armor or doing any other activity for more than a few seconds at a time.  Not saying its completely out of the question but I think there's a reason that plate armor eventually faded from the scene. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    RetroGrouch

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 840

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #31 on: September 11, 2016, 08:54:18 PM »
    How about we put that guy in plate on the ground on his back and see how nimble he is getting up.
    Arizona

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6327
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #32 on: September 11, 2016, 08:54:50 PM »
    ... I think there's a reason that plate armor eventually faded from the scene. 
    Gunpowder. 
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7123
    • eccentric orbit

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #33 on: September 11, 2016, 10:21:24 PM »
    Gunpowder. 
    True, but when you are armed with a single shot weapon that takes a lot of time and effort to reload you tend to develop other weapons like the rapier, the foil, the epee and the saber.  The cloak and dagger were the first truly notable effort in the realm of concealed carry weapons. 

    Plate armor was frightfully expensive and marginally effective even in its heyday, and when methods evolved to deal with it there was no great wailing at its passing. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5783
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #34 on: September 11, 2016, 10:40:02 PM »
    I have a buddy who does HEMA and he performed a demo in full plate and mail where he rolled, did handstands, cartwheels, etc. There are YouTube vids to this effect as well. He explained that many knights were physical specimens that were not at all like turtles on their back if knocked down. With a well made and properly fitted suit of armor they could do anything they needed to do. According to him it was the heavier, thicker tournament jousting armor that was rigidly locked into place and restricted movement. His armor weighs somewhere in the area of 60-70lbs depending.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7123
    • eccentric orbit

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #35 on: September 11, 2016, 11:02:04 PM »
    Fair enough.  I still stand by my earlier assessment though.  Wearing 60+ pounds of armor - well fitted or not - for most of a day will wear you down.  It doesn't matter who you are.  If that armor is damaged or retaining straps are compromised it no longer fits or works as well as it should.  If the sun is low on the horizon you'll have a hard time even seeing your enemy with a full helmet on and the visor down. 

    With all due respect to the flower of chivalry, we're still the same species that learned to hunt the largest, fiercest land animals since the dinosaurs with wooden sticks with stone points fastened to them - and also a little thing we discovered called fire.  We also brought some friends to the party that used to run in packs and howl at the moon before they decided it was better to join us than hunt us.  We can usually figure out how to get it done and when its all on the line we don't mind cheating.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    First Shirt

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 274
    • Retired zoomie intel geek

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #36 on: September 12, 2016, 10:00:18 AM »
    Like the Gunny said, "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't really tryin. "
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5783
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #37 on: September 12, 2016, 12:51:49 PM »
    Fair enough.  I still stand by my earlier assessment though.  Wearing 60+ pounds of armor - well fitted or not - for most of a day will wear you down.  It doesn't matter who you are.  If that armor is damaged or retaining straps are compromised it no longer fits or works as well as it should.  If the sun is low on the horizon you'll have a hard time even seeing your enemy with a full helmet on and the visor down. 

    With all due respect to the flower of chivalry, we're still the same species that learned to hunt the largest, fiercest land animals since the dinosaurs with wooden sticks with stone points fastened to them - and also a little thing we discovered called fire.  We also brought some friends to the party that used to run in packs and howl at the moon before they decided it was better to join us than hunt us.  We can usually figure out how to get it done and when its all on the line we don't mind cheating.

    I agree. They may have been more mobile than most think but their endurance, especially in the broiling sun, would have been a limited resource. I wear a soft Kevlar patrol vest and at times a hard plate carrier and those are hotter than hell. I can't imagine what full body plate with thick quilted under garments would have been like to wear. Then there's the smell...
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7123
    • eccentric orbit

    • Online
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #38 on: September 14, 2016, 12:08:59 AM »
    Ack .  .  .   :vomit.   Its not like you could just drop trou' in the middle of a battle to take a whiz either - I'm thinking a lot of that armor may have started rusting from the inside out.  Just sayin' .   .   .   
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5783
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #39 on: September 14, 2016, 12:34:42 AM »
    "I say, Percy, I feel quite the rumble in my tumble as they say...oh dear... I must have fruit!"
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    First Shirt

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 274
    • Retired zoomie intel geek

    • Offline
    Re: The English Longbow
    « Reply #40 on: September 14, 2016, 08:14:05 PM »
    Actually, a lot of the English archers and men-at-arms had contracted serious cases of dysentery, and went to the field with their hose tucked behind them in their belts, so they could "accommodate the situation" more conveniently.

    FWIW, I contracted dysentery during my Southeast Asian Vacation, and can vouch for the fact that they were tougher men than I ever was!
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.