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Author Topic: You can't keep a bad man down.  (Read 4276 times)

Fenderbassist

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2016, 01:21:17 PM »
Thank you!

I also carry a 642 as my back up, but have yet to buy some gold dot +p's.

I just have .38 special Hornady critical duty. Not sure if any police dept or anyone has had good results with that particular .38  :shrug.

Hornady makes great rounds.  Lately I've been using the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain "short barrel" loads (as opposed to the other 125 grain Gold Dot loads).  Very happy with these in a snub.



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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #26 on: December 01, 2016, 04:52:25 PM »
    Hornady makes great rounds.  Lately I've been using the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain "short barrel" loads (as opposed to the other 125 grain Gold Dot loads).  Very happy with these in a snub.



    Just confirmed, that's the exact load we issue
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    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #27 on: December 04, 2016, 12:28:02 AM »
    I read in the comments that the good guy had the bullet whiz by his head and was not harmed, but that was quite the close call!



    In this one, the bad guys actually did stay down, but it is still an interesting scenario.



    ETA: If you look closely, the bad guy vehicle started to roll backwards, but one of the deceased perps kept it from backing up. There is something to be said when the bad guys getaway vehicle is stopped due to the piling corpses of said bad guys. This was definitely a strange one, but I still consider it pretty big win for the good guys. They wanted a fight and took it to him and he only shot the ones who didn't flee or stop shooting back at him.
    « Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 12:38:50 AM by MTK20 »
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #28 on: December 04, 2016, 05:43:46 PM »
    Looks like the good guys won a couple that could just as easily gone the other way.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #29 on: December 04, 2016, 05:48:08 PM »
    Looks like the good guys won a couple that could just as easily gone the other way.

    Agreed. One on one would be horrible and one on three? A nightmare  :shocked.

    I also wouldn't place bets on the BG missing a shot from 2 feet away, either. Both videos shown were very close calls, I'm sure.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 01:11:05 PM »
    Agreed. One on one would be horrible and one on three? A nightmare  :shocked.

    I also wouldn't place bets on the BG missing a shot from 2 feet away, either. Both videos shown were very close calls, I'm sure.

    If you have ever done any force on force with something like airsoft. Then it is really amazing how many clean misses you see happen at spitting distance.
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 09:59:01 PM »
    I need to do some force on force training.... it's one of the things that I'm really lacking.
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 10:48:34 PM »
    If you have ever done any force on force with something like airsoft. Then it is really amazing how many clean misses you see happen at spitting distance.

    Closest thing I've ever come to force-on-force training (paintball, IMO, doesn't count) was a modified Tueller drill at a handgun course (modified because it was an indoor range). Target started more or less 7 yards away and moved forward at a moderate distance until it reached the end of the track, which was just past contact distance.. We ran the drill twice, five rounds per drill, once starting at retention and once drawing from the holster. At the end of the second drill, I had three rounds on paper. One hit the bad guy in the shoulder, the second in the love handle, and the last sort-of-kind-of of close to his head, but not in the black so it didn't count.

    This after I'd pretty well smoked the static firing drills and done decently well at shooting from cover. So yeah, I absolutely believe how easy it is to miss at bad-breath distance.
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    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #33 on: December 05, 2016, 11:07:51 PM »
    Closest thing I've ever come to force-on-force training (paintball, IMO, doesn't count) was a modified Tueller drill at a handgun course (modified because it was an indoor range). Target started more or less 7 yards away and moved forward at a moderate distance until it reached the end of the track, which was just past contact distance.. We ran the drill twice, five rounds per drill, once starting at retention and once drawing from the holster. At the end of the second drill, I had three rounds on paper. One hit the bad guy in the shoulder, the second in the love handle, and the last sort-of-kind-of of close to his head, but not in the black so it didn't count.

    This after I'd pretty well smoked the static firing drills and done decently well at shooting from cover. So yeah, I absolutely believe how easy it is to miss at bad-breath distance.

    Paintball absolutely counts. Especially if you are working angles and ambushes like in woodsball.

    I've played airsoft with my buddies when I was a teen. We tried for the milsim stuff, but it was mainly just us guys screwing around (then again one could even say tactical courses are just guys messing around ;)).

    While I understand it is easy to miss or be missed at that distance, still... I don't want to take my chances or bet money on such an occurrence.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #34 on: December 06, 2016, 12:37:24 AM »
    I've been a participant, actor, and instructor in FoF using Simunitions. I've seen crazy stuff like missing easy shots or people falling/acting like they'd been shot. I've also seen some fantastic tactics and excellent shots. The latter are highly trained folks who have been inoculated against stress. The former are people who are trained but don't get a lot along of it with little exposure to high risk low frequency events.

    It's funny, in a sad way, when you put the suits on people and give them the Sims gun to watch them go into the 180-220 heart beat range and pouting sweat. There isn't a lot of cognitive thinking when you get there. Thats why you see misses.
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #35 on: December 06, 2016, 06:43:04 AM »
    I get to do FoF with the local LE folks every few months. It is fun, and you get to see some hilarious stuff. There is a handful of the local LE folks I have trained with that are just insane with the airsoft stuff. If they are 1/10th as good in a real gun fight as they are with airsoft then they are BAMFs.
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 05:53:06 PM »
    This isn't a situation of a determined attacker taking multiple rounds, but in the spirit of my thread and showing the evils that do exist in this world, here is compliance gone wrong.

    While the rifles, multiple attackers, and body armour are unique to this particular situation, an evil SOB with a handgun tucked in his hoody can just as easily take someone's life. Whether it is an assassination attempt, a perceived challenge to their ego, or they lack empathy for their fellow man and get off on imposing their will on others through violence- evil does exist.

    There are so many real life cases of situations just like this one:



    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #37 on: January 21, 2017, 02:12:11 PM »


    The good guys endurance is amazing in this fight. One handed, side lying shots, on a diagonally moving target, while shot.

    This is one of the sadder ones with a "multiple shot" instance, because I'm not sure if the good guy lived.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #38 on: January 21, 2017, 10:33:28 PM »
    That was rough to watch.   :facepalm
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #39 on: May 05, 2017, 07:15:32 PM »


    This one is crazy  :shocked.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #40 on: May 08, 2017, 12:55:43 PM »
    Reinforcing that shot placement counts. The shots are fast and hard to count, but I believe that about 12 rounds were fired and one of the individuals was shot about 8-9 times. The last one was a CNS hit and you can tell the reaction is completely different than the others.


    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #41 on: May 08, 2017, 04:02:47 PM »


    This one is crazy  :shocked.

    chemically assisted I think
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
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    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #42 on: May 08, 2017, 04:06:33 PM »
    Stuff like that makes me worried that I carry a revolver. But then with that situation specifically, I have trained enough muscle memory that I could reload in that time frame. It also helps that I carry a second revolver, so...  :cool.

    Still though, that man just kept going. I'm sure he was on something else as well, but you have to be fueled by a lot of hate for your fellow man to be that driven to hurt people :shocked.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    LowKey

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #43 on: May 08, 2017, 11:57:19 PM »
    Not to sound Internet tough guy or tacti-cool, but every time I see that video clip I keep thinking, "When he tried to get up again...headshot". 
    Heck, I'd have given him a head shot when he was on the ground and still trying to move given the area and environment, as the risk of people wearing explosive vests in that part of the world is much higher and this sure as heck didn't look like an armed robbery attempt.   


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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #44 on: May 09, 2017, 03:53:18 PM »
    I remember my dad and uncle telling strangelittleman and I about how the VC would dose up with heroin so they weren't feeling the damage as they were shot to rags when they charged US positions. I've read the same a couple of years ago about Taliban and AQ fighters doing the same with heroin and meth as they launched assaults and ambushes.

    I would think heroin would mess your coordination and alertness up too much to be very effective. Now meth, I have seen first hand how it will make someone feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    MTK20

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #45 on: May 09, 2017, 04:02:17 PM »
    I remember my dad and uncle telling strangelittleman and I about how the VC would dose up with heroin so they weren't feeling the damage as they were shot to rags when they charged US positions. I've read the same a couple of years ago about Taliban and AQ fighters doing the same with heroin and meth as they launched assaults and ambushes.

    I would think heroin would mess your coordination and alertness up too much to be very effective. Now meth, I have seen first hand how it will make someone feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof.

    I have heard that Fallujah specifically had a lot of incidents of using chemical means before fighting our troops. I know that as armed citizens we might have to protect ourselves form a meth head and sometimes from a murderer, but how often does the criminal element use drugs as a tactic for in the fight? To me it seems like something only a radical religious zealot (jihadi) or 3rd world child soldier would do, not like something we would experience in America, whether acting as a cop or citizen.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #46 on: May 09, 2017, 04:27:20 PM »
    Someone who is willing to commit armed robbery just might also be a chronic drug user trying to get the cash for his habit, and also be on drugs.


    Don't forget the "bath salts" and PCP, make people violent and somewhat resistant to pain and injuries short of incapacitation.
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    Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
    « Reply #47 on: May 10, 2017, 01:28:25 PM »
    Exactly. Many armed robbers will dose up prior to a hit to bolster their courage. 3/4 of the people I deal with are using some sort of chemical enhancement.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

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