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Author Topic: You can't keep a bad man down.  (Read 2578 times)

MTK20

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You can't keep a bad man down.
« on: May 04, 2016, 02:58:49 AM »
The calibre used: .45 ACP

The perp had no drugs or alcohol in his system.

14 shots connected.

6 hits in "fatal" locations, autopsy showed GSW's to the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney.

33 rounds discharged in about 56 seconds, the duration of the gun fight.

The perp didn't stop firing until taking a direct shot to the head (and was still reported to have vital signs when the EMS arrived).

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

I am sure everyone on this site, especially our LEO's, have heard about this case many times. I felt the need to share, because this is one of the first truly detailed articles I've read on the case.

I have a few things to say in the matter: First off thank you, all of you LEO's, for your service.

Second, thank goodness the guy didn't grab the SKS he had in his car. I don't know why he left it, but Officer Gramins has a guardian angel somewhere.

Third, I bet Gramins really wish he could have grabbed the 12 gauge. Had it not been for skill and luck things could have gone a lot worse in this situation.

Lastly, it's a scary question, but what do you do when they don't stop their actions, when there is no quit to them? As a responsibly armed citizen my goal is to break contact as soon as possible, to get out of there. But even being a cake eating civilian, sometimes criminals don't let you break contact/escape. Definitely food for thought and a very scary thought at that.

I was debating between putting this in Strategy and tactics or in Law Enforcement sections.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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Robinson

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 09:23:55 AM »
Heck of a story, and my hat's off to Officer Gramins.
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sarge712

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 11:51:36 AM »
Cool link.

Same held true in the infamous FBI Miami shootout wherein bankrobbers and murderers Platt and Mattox soaked up scores of rounds until a shotgun wielded by S/A Ed Mireles ended it. Toxicology showed no drugs in either killer's system. They were running on just adrenaline and aggressive mindset (one was a former 82nd Airborne trooper, not sure about the other).
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2016, 01:22:05 PM »
An amazing story.  Proving, once again, that the only true "one shot stop" is a solid CNS hit.  Had the officer been able to shatter the pelvis of his assailant he might have not had to face him re-armed and still highly mobile. 

Brings to mind some of the responses from the Mozambique Drill thread, no?   :hmm
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 01:39:49 PM »
An amazing story.  Proving, once again, that the only true "one shot stop" is a solid CNS hit.  Had the officer been able to shatter the pelvis of his assailant he might have not had to face him re-armed and still highly mobile. 

Brings to mind some of the responses from the Mozambique Drill thread, no?   :hmm

That it does! In fact, I'll link it for future reference.

http://wethearmed.com/strategy-and-tactics/dissecting-the-mozambique-drill/
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 06:26:46 PM »
Cool link.

Same held true in the infamous FBI Miami shootout wherein bankrobbers and murderers Platt and Mattox soaked up scores of rounds until a shotgun wielded by S/A Ed Mireles ended it. Toxicology showed no drugs in either killer's system. They were running on just adrenaline and aggressive mindset (one was a former 82nd Airborne trooper, not sure about the other).

Found a detailed police training video of the Miami shootout (they even give us a step by step breakdown and reenactment!).



While initially a thread for Officer Gramins experience, I want this to be a high quality thread of other shoot outs. If you know any cases, videos, and especially officer assessments of how to prevent future happenings; please post them. It'll be like our very own "Ayoob files, WTA edition:cool.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2016, 02:24:58 AM »
I stumbled across this interview between Mas Ayoob and Chicago PD Lt. Bob Stasch a while back. It's long, but the part that's always stuck with me starts at about the 8:20 mark. Lt. Stasch describes his first shooting, where a drug dealer pulled a knife on Stasch's partner during an attempted arrest. Perp soaked up 15 rounds of .45 LC, .44 Mag, and .38 +P, from contact distance to 12-15 feet away and didn't even slow down until Stasch hit him in the knee and literally blew his knee out. According to Stasch, the perp had most of his insides blown out onto the sidewalk and still lived for ten days afterwards. Wasn't wearing body armor, no drugs or anything in his system. He just refused to give up and die.

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Ken Brock

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 07:51:04 AM »
One line stood out to me the officer said, "I need to slow down and aim better" and then he shot the suspect in the head.

Almost made it sound like he was not aiming at first.

Regardless, I'm glad that it worked out the way it did
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 03:46:22 PM »
Some humans are just too tough and stubborn to go down easy. (See Benevidez, Roy.)
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 08:29:03 PM »
I stumbled across this interview between Mas Ayoob and Chicago PD Lt. Bob Stasch a while back. It's long, but the part that's always stuck with me starts at about the 8:20 mark. Lt. Stasch describes his first shooting, where a drug dealer pulled a knife on Stasch's partner during an attempted arrest. Perp soaked up 15 rounds of .45 LC, .44 Mag, and .38 +P, from contact distance to 12-15 feet away and didn't even slow down until Stasch hit him in the knee and literally blew his knee out. According to Stasch, the perp had most of his insides blown out onto the sidewalk and still lived for ten days afterwards. Wasn't wearing body armor, no drugs or anything in his system. He just refused to give up and die.




fluff me dead! To hear the man tell the story in person is most scary. I didn't know that cops ever used .45 LC and .44 magnum on duty at that time (which is embarrassing to me seeing as I try to collect historical LEO weapons). Last several botched gun fights we have discussed have involved the .38 spcl +P FBI load, I find this most unsettling seeing as this is my daily carry load. Then again, it's overall track record is very good for stopping BG's  :cool.

ETA: 21:20

Oh, there it is. My confirmation bias has just been itched  :cool.

Quote
"Chicago has seen tremendous success with the 158 gr .38 spcl +P lead hollow point (aka my beloved FBI load)."
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 08:53:54 PM by MTK20 »
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

strangelittleman

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 08:48:45 PM »
  Last several botched gun fights we have discussed have involved the .38 spcl +P FBI load, I find this most unsettling seeing as this is my daily carry load. Then again, it's overall track record is very good for stopping BG's  :cool.
  The reason the last few GFs discussed involved the FBI load is only due to it being one of the most issued loads of that era.

  As far as the .38Spl+P LHP having an excellent track record, Yes it certainly does. It has performed as well as any sidearm could be expected to and better than most.
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 09:42:00 PM »
  The reason the last few GFs discussed involved the FBI load is only due to it being one of the most issued loads of that era.

  As far as the .38Spl+P LHP having an excellent track record, Yes it certainly does. It has performed as well as any sidearm could be expected to and better than most.

Makes sense. If I predicted that 99% of officers who got shot in the line of duty today would be holding a Glock 22 in their hand at the time of injury, it would sound prophetic.... But, not really. It's just what is issued/used these days. The Glock 22 doesn't get anyone killed. What's the saying? correlation is not the same as causation?
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

strangelittleman

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 09:39:42 PM »
Some humans are just too tough and stubborn to go down easy. (See Benevidez, Roy.)
  Absolutely!!
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 01:38:32 PM »
  The reason the last few GFs discussed involved the FBI load is only due to it being one of the most issued loads of that era.

  As far as the .38Spl+P LHP having an excellent track record, Yes it certainly does. It has performed as well as any sidearm could be expected to and better than most.

Indeed.  And with today's bonded projectiles and short barrel loads, the .38 +P has become even a better platform.
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2016, 01:40:12 PM »
ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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Chief45

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2016, 02:47:47 PM »
I missed this part when this topic was first posted, but, just for reference.

Detroit PD,  and several other agencies,  not sure about Chicago but Bud could probably answer that.

Officers were allowed to carry anything they wanted to a point, after a point, but they could NOT carry hollow-points.    Many, Many officers, my Uncles included, went to something throwing bigger rounds.  41, 44 and 45 anything were sidearms of choice of the officers with enough seniority.



In thinking about that, that might be where part of my favoritism for a 45 started, before I actually had an opinion on it.






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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2016, 03:30:16 PM »
I missed this part when this topic was first posted, but, just for reference.

Detroit PD,  and several other agencies,  not sure about Chicago but Bud could probably answer that.

Officers were allowed to carry anything they wanted to a point, after a point, but they could NOT carry hollow-points.    Many, Many officers, my Uncles included, went to something throwing bigger rounds.  41, 44 and 45 anything were sidearms of choice of the officers with enough seniority.



In thinking about that, that might be where part of my favoritism for a 45 started, before I actually had an opinion on it.

Larger bore made a ton of sense when you didn't have hp projectiles or anything traveling at very high velocity, still does.

I felt very adequately armed when I used to carry .44 Special Gold Dot loads in a 3" revolver.
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
I missed this part when this topic was first posted, but, just for reference.

Detroit PD,  and several other agencies,  not sure about Chicago but Bud could probably answer that.

Officers were allowed to carry anything they wanted to a point, after a point, but they could NOT carry hollow-points.    Many, Many officers, my Uncles included, went to something throwing bigger rounds.  41, 44 and 45 anything were sidearms of choice of the officers with enough seniority.



In thinking about that, that might be where part of my favoritism for a 45 started, before I actually had an opinion on it.

Thank you! I didn't know this!

I wonder when the transition to hollow points happened? The fbi load has been going strong for a long time and that's a hollow point. Same with the classic Leo preferred gold dot and 124 gain semi jacketed hollow point in .357 magnum.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2016, 09:59:23 PM »
Timely topic. One of our guys got in an epic fight today and bad guy got his gun. Our officer drew his back up gun and delivered one round of .38 which stopped the fight. Not sure where it hit but it had to have been a CNS hit to puddle him up the way it did
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2016, 10:14:24 PM »
Timely topic. One of our guys got in an epic fight today and bad guy got his gun. Our officer drew his back up gun and delivered one round of .38 which stopped the fight. Not sure where it hit but it had to have been a CNS hit to puddle him up the way it did

Was the perp incapacitated or was it fatal?

What type of round did he use? Brand/make and if it was .38 or +p.

And finally, what revolver? If it was a j frame, I'd say that is pretty good coming from a 1.8 inch barrel.



Thanks for the input!  :thumbup1
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2016, 11:47:12 PM »
It makes me wonder about the logic behind "you can use a 44 mag, but not hollowpoints.
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2016, 01:18:02 AM »
Was the perp incapacitated or was it fatal?

What type of round did he use? Brand/make and if it was .38 or +p.

And finally, what revolver? If it was a j frame, I'd say that is pretty good coming from a 1.8 inch barrel.



Thanks for the input!  :thumbup1

When he said he puddled up that made me think DRT (dead right there)
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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2016, 10:49:31 PM »
Was the perp incapacitated or was it fatal?

What type of round did he use? Brand/make and if it was .38 or +p.

And finally, what revolver? If it was a j frame, I'd say that is pretty good coming from a 1.8 inch barrel.



Thanks for the input!  :thumbup1

Definitely fatal. Dude did not take another step

I'll have to double check which back up gun he used. The department issues a 642 with a .38 +P gold dot but it is possible he carried a personally owned back up

Saw crime scene photos today, definitely puddled up. Haven't seen autopsy yet but my guess still leans toward CNS hit
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MTK20

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Re: You can't keep a bad man down.
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2016, 11:40:18 PM »
Definitely fatal. Dude did not take another step

I'll have to double check which back up gun he used. The department issues a 642 with a .38 +P gold dot but it is possible he carried a personally owned back up

Saw crime scene photos today, definitely puddled up. Haven't seen autopsy yet but my guess still leans toward CNS hit

Thank you!

I also carry a 642 as my back up, but have yet to buy some gold dot +p's.

I just have .38 special Hornady critical duty. Not sure if any police dept or anyone has had good results with that particular .38  :shrug.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.