Author Topic: Two More LEO's Killed... (Read 17397 times)

Plebian · « **Reply #25 on:** December 09, 2016, 03:46:31 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on December 09, 2016, 12:27:07 pm

Plebian, what do you do for a living? I've noticed that you seem quite well versed in numbers, statistics, and epidemiology. This isn't the first post with which you've weighed in with similar information.

My official title is field biologist. My BS was biology with math minor, Masters in biological metrics, PhD in population metrics. So I am that most unholy bastardized cross of biology and statistics.

WeTheArmed.com

Chief45 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 09, 2016, 03:53:46 pm »

From the Officer Down memorial page. https://www.odmp.org/

Line of Duty Deaths for 2016 so far. 137. Up 15%.
auto related deaths. 55. Up 20%
Death by Gunfire. 62. up 72%.

and while they may be statistics to you, ODMP can put a name and face and cause of death with every one of those numbers.

Quote from: Plebian on December 09, 2016, 03:32:57 pm

The main issue is the call out and ambush causes of death really rising for cops, OR is all the other numbers going down and they are rising as a percentage but not in ratio with population overall.

Since the overall numbers are dropping for cops killed in the line of duty. It would take nearly all cop deaths being attributed to ambush murders for them to grow in ratio with overall numbers.

Violent deaths among taxi drivers and store clerks are about in percentage with LEO violent deaths. Are their apples the same as cop apples, or are they oranges as well?

I would also still like to point out. Cops are not most likely to end up dead by being shot. They die by the same means most of the other dangerous professions do. They get killed by that most menacing of incidents, the motor vehicle accident.

MTK20 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 09, 2016, 04:23:33 pm »

I feel like we're focusing on the wrong thing here.

Bad things are happening to good men and women in uniform. How frequently, how much, or if it's down from last year doesn't make much of a difference to me because evil deeds are evil.

Just because someone (an officer) knows what they are signing up for in a potentially dangerous profession does not mean that this badness can be excused.

Chief45 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 09, 2016, 04:53:04 pm »

and don't get me wrong on this either. I am not fearful or afraid. I am not going to stop doing what I do. I was one of those fortunate ones that found my calling and what I was meant to do and I will continue until I am no longer able to.

Peel's principles of law enforcement, published in 1829 and as relevant today as the first day they were published.

#7. which says

7. The police at all times should maintain a relationship with the public that gives
reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the
police; the police are the only members of the public who are paid to give full-time
attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the intent of the
community welfare.

These attacks are not just against police officers. These are attacks on every one. When they are, ignored, allowed to blend into the back ground noise, dismissed as a statistical aberration, you are ignoring attacks on you, your family and the society we live in. My brothers are on the front line, but the front line is the home front. and the attacks are not happening in some distant 3rd world country. They are happening right down the street from you and you are at risk as well. We at least know what we signed up for, we've had the training and have the tools. you chose a different path, yet your society, your way of life, your children and families are also under attack every time a police officer is killed. Don't diminish that threat.

Quote from: MTK20 on December 09, 2016, 04:23:33 pm

I feel like we're focusing on the wrong thing here.

Bad things are happening to good men and women in uniform. How frequently, how much, or if it's down from last year doesn't make much of a difference to me because evil deeds are evil.

Just because someone (an officer) knows what they are signing up for in a potentially dangerous profession does not mean that this badness can be excused.

Plebian · « **Reply #29 on:** December 09, 2016, 05:43:03 pm »

We also should not build molehills into mountains with emotional charge.

That is the greatest advantage statistical analysis gives. It allows you to see truth in numbers, and to draw correct conclusions based on logic and reason instead of emotional impact. Statistical analysis and its part in the scientific method is what built the society you are protecting. When you dismiss the tools of mathematics and reason you place yourself in the emotional state of an animal snapping and growling at the thunderstorm instead of taking reasonable shelter.

'An attack on the king's soldiers is the same as an attack on the king himself.' Is a poor position to take. It is a logical fallacy built on the emotional pretense of fear.

I am not dismissing the evil done by evil men. If a whackado shoots a 7-11 clerk in the face or an officer of the law in the face. It makes him no worse or better of a whackado.

The main issue I am pointing out is overreaction can be more harmful than lack of action.

coyotesfan97 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 09, 2016, 08:33:14 pm »

I guess that's the difference in view from inside the arena versus sitting on a bench watching.

Chief45 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 09, 2016, 08:34:06 pm »

Well, you see, I don't use those phrases and descriptors. I cannot accept or trust something like "statistically this means nothing". Or even "in the grand scheme of things". My training is not to see groups or deal with statistics. I see and deal with individuals. I deal at the family or tribal level at the largest. The level your looking at is anathema to me. I have to deal at the smallest number, one on one.

Quote from: Plebian on December 09, 2016, 05:43:03 pm

We also should not build molehills into mountains with emotional charge.

That is the greatest advantage statistical analysis gives. It allows you to see truth in numbers, and to draw correct conclusions based on logic and reason instead of emotional impact. Statistical analysis and its part in the scientific method is what built the society you are protecting. When you dismiss the tools of mathematics and reason you place yourself in the emotional state of an animal snapping and growling at the thunderstorm instead of taking reasonable shelter.

'An attack on the king's soldiers is the same as an attack on the king himself.' Is a poor position to take. It is a logical fallacy built on the emotional pretense of fear.

I am not dismissing the evil done by evil men. If a whackado shoots a 7-11 clerk in the face or an officer of the law in the face. It makes him no worse or better of a whackado.

The main issue I am pointing out is overreaction can be more harmful than lack of action.

freeman1685 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 09, 2016, 09:08:46 pm »

Quote from: coyotesfan97 on December 09, 2016, 08:33:14 pm

I guess that's the difference in view from inside the arena versus sitting on a bench watching.

Quoted for truth.

I take it as a personal affront, every time I hear about another officer down incident.

sarge712 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 09, 2016, 09:24:47 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on December 09, 2016, 03:03:55 pm

Agreed

Like I said in my previous post, I don't know why y'all suit up everyday with the public opinion as it is.

Because I really do love my community. Despite some of the a______ politicians and the odd anti-everything wingnut, we have an incredibly supportive public here in Western NC. We had one chucklehead at my agency that was urging officers to "BlueFlu." We senior patrol officers shut him down by refusing and encouraging the younger crowd to shift through al the negative crap and focus on the positive. Good people like my in-laws, cousins and nephews and nieces, fellow church members etc. depend on us to be out there.

We cannot leave them to fend for themselves no matter how badly we want to send a message. Most can fend for themselves but gentle souls like my mother-in-law simply cannot. Besides chasing bad guys, the majority of our job consists of welfare checks on elders, lost children, abused children, rape victims, car accidents with life threatening injuries, etc. that MUST be taken care of. Fear of some back shooting bastard is not going to keep me from doing this job nor is lack of support by the politicians. They'll come and go and we'll still be here long after. BT, DT.

sarge712 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 09, 2016, 09:31:35 pm »

Quote from: Plebian on December 09, 2016, 05:43:03 pm

If a whackado shoots a 7-11 clerk in the face or an officer of the law in the face. It makes him no worse or better of a whackado.
.

Shooting an officer of the law does indeed make him a much worse threat. Officers represent not just the law but society itself. If someone will shoot an LEO, who won't he kill? The clerk's death while no less tragic in terms of humanity, does not represent an attack against society and the rule of law like an attack on a cop does. Its the same as if someone killed a cop verses killing the President of the United States. His death would have a greater effect on society than mine would. Although both are tragic, he represents much more than I do.

sarge712 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 09, 2016, 09:32:28 pm »

Quote from: coyotesfan97 on December 09, 2016, 08:33:14 pm

I guess that's the difference in view from inside the arena versus sitting on a bench watching.

+1

MTK20 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 09, 2016, 09:44:52 pm »

Quote from: sarge712 on December 09, 2016, 09:24:47 pm

Because I really do love my community. Despite some of the a______ politicians and the odd anti-everything wingnut, we have an incredibly supportive public here in Western NC. We had one chucklehead at my agency that was urging officers to "BlueFlu." We senior patrol officers shut him down by refusing and encouraging the younger crowd to shift through al the negative crap and focus on the positive. Good people like my in-laws, cousins and nephews and nieces, fellow church members etc. depend on us to be out there.

We cannot leave them to fend for themselves no matter how badly we want to send a message. Most can fend for themselves but gentle souls like my mother-in-law simply cannot. Besides chasing bad guys, the majority of our job consists of welfare checks on elders, lost children, abused children, rape victims, car accidents with life threatening injuries, etc. that MUST be taken care of. Fear of some back shooting bastard is not going to keep me from doing this job nor is lack of support by the politicians. They'll come and go and we'll still be here long after. BT, DT.

God bless y'all

.

Raptor · « **Reply #37 on:** December 09, 2016, 11:48:21 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on December 09, 2016, 09:44:52 pm

God bless y'all .

Amen, and amen!

There was a police officer killed in the line of duty in my area almost exactly one month ago.About two miles from where I work, actually.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/washington/2016/11/10/Officials-Two-police-officers-shot-in-Canonsburg-pennsylvania/stories/201611100153

http://www.wtae.com/article/two-police-officers-shot-in-canonsburg/8269288

Similar to what happened in the Georgia case: two officers responded to a domestic disturbance call were shot from ambush with "a high-powered rifle." Both were seriously wounded, one later died at the hospital. From what I understand, every single law enforcement agency in radio range of the initial "officer down" call responded to the shooting. The shooter shot at responding officers, pinning them down and unable to reach the downed officers. One officer drove his car into the line of fire and pulled the two downed officers into his own vehicle. The shooter eventually killed himself, but not before first murdering his pregnant wife.

The entire community has rallied around the fallen officer's family and our police in general since the shooting. Every single business with a changeable sign front put up messages remembering the fallen officer and declaring support for the police. The overwhelming majority of those signs are still there. It's my understanding that more than enough donations were made to the officer's family to put all four of his children through college. And even a month later, I'm still seeing people on the street walk up to cops and thank them for what they do.

Officer Scott Bashioum, Canonsburg PA Police Department. EOW 11-10-16.

sarge712 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 10, 2016, 03:24:49 am »

The out pouring of support here has been amazing. One example is since March of this year my squad has had meals paid for Close to 20 times by anonymous persons. We only eat out together as a group on our "Friday" and we usually do so at a local buffet place called Granny's Kitchen. Jim and Caryn know the place as we ate there when they came to Cherokee. Its a very pro cop place and I've lost track how many times the waitresses have told us someone already paid for our food. And then there's the people who come up and thank us for what we do. The media and the haters can go polish turds. I know how the public at large here feels. People are fed up with the negative press and that is just one way I was not surprised when Trump won the way he did. That dissatisfaction with the liberal war on all that's good manifested itself long before November.

coyotesfan97 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 10, 2016, 07:30:20 am »

Quote from: sarge712 on December 10, 2016, 03:24:49 am

The out pouring of support here has been amazing. One example is since March of this year my squad has had meals paid for Close to 20 times by anonymous persons. We only eat out together as a group on our "Friday" and we usually do so at a local buffet place called Granny's Kitchen. Jim and Caryn know the place as we ate there when they came to Cherokee. Its a very pro cop place and I've lost track how many times the waitresses have told us someone already paid for our food. And then there's the people who come up and thank us for what we do. The media and the haters can go polish turds. I know how the public at large here feels. People are fed up with the negative press and that is just one way I was not surprised when Trump won the way he did. That dissatisfaction with the liberal war on all that's good manifested itself long before November.

+1. I work in one of the most conservative cities in the Phoenix Metro area. We've had a lot of meals paid for and almost without exception someone thanks us for our service.

GaBoy45 · « **Reply #40 on:** December 10, 2016, 08:49:49 am »

Quote from: MTK20 on December 09, 2016, 03:03:55 pm

Like I said in my previous post, I don't know why y'all suit up everyday with the public opinion as it is.

Can't speak for everyone but most of the ones I know it's because if we don't, who will?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kaso · « **Reply #41 on:** December 10, 2016, 02:04:22 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on December 09, 2016, 11:48:21 pm

There was a police officer killed in the line of duty in my area almost exactly one month ago.About two miles from where I work, actually.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/washington/2016/11/10/Officials-Two-police-officers-shot-in-Canonsburg-pennsylvania/stories/201611100153

http://www.wtae.com/article/two-police-officers-shot-in-canonsburg/8269288

Similar to what happened in the Georgia case: two officers responded to a domestic disturbance call were shot from ambush with "a high-powered rifle." Both were seriously wounded, one later died at the hospital. From what I understand, every single law enforcement agency in radio range of the initial "officer down" call responded to the shooting. The shooter shot at responding officers, pinning them down and unable to reach the downed officers. One officer drove his car into the line of fire and pulled the two downed officers into his own vehicle. The shooter eventually killed himself, but not before first murdering his pregnant wife.

This happened about two blocks from my grandmother's house, but she was completely unaware of the goings on until we told her later that day.

Raptor is correct. The local community really has pulled together for these guys. Two things in particular: Many local homes and businesses are displaying blue ribbons, (the two mile long road where the fallen officer lived was and is absolutely covered with them) and there has been a trend to replace outdoor lighting with 'blue' colored bulbs, as a show of support. Lots of blue spotlights and porch lights out there.

Langenator · « **Reply #42 on:** December 11, 2016, 09:54:30 pm »

It seems to me that the most relevant statistic is the number of LEOs who have been killed in deliberate attacks whose entire purpose was to kill cops. This would include fake calls to set up ambushes, pulling up to a cop car at a stop light and shooting the occupants, etc. The Dallas attack is the prime recent example, or the Lakewood Starbucks attack several years ago.

Another category is cops killed in violent encounters during the course of normal police business. There have always been domestic calls, drug raids, traffic stops, and so on, where a bad guy decided that taking down the cop(s) was his best option at the moment.

Are the numbers, for both categories, going up or down? Chief's numbers seem to indicate that the recent trend is up. Most interesting to me would be the trend lines before and after Ferguson and the advent of Black Lives Matter. Has BLM's agitation led to increasing deliberate attacks on cops? Has it led to an increase in the number of criminals choosing to violently resist when the police catch up with them? Or is it something else?

MTK20 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 11, 2016, 10:29:17 pm »

Quote from: Langenator on December 11, 2016, 09:54:30 pm

It seems to me that the most relevant statistic is the number of LEOs who have been killed in deliberate attacks whose entire purpose was to kill cops. This would include fake calls to set up ambushes, pulling up to a cop car at a stop light and shooting the occupants, etc. The Dallas attack is the prime recent example, or the Lakewood Starbucks attack several years ago.

Another category is cops killed in violent encounters during the course of normal police business. There have always been domestic calls, drug raids, traffic stops, and so on, where a bad guy decided that taking down the cop(s) was his best option at the moment.

Are the numbers, for both categories, going up or down? Chief's numbers seem to indicate that the recent trend is up. Most interesting to me would be the trend lines before and after Ferguson and the advent of Black Lives Matter. Has BLM's agitation led to increasing deliberate attacks on cops? Has it led to an increase in the number of criminals choosing to violently resist when the police catch up with them? Or is it something else?

If I had to guess, I'd say that BLM has probably sparked some of the incidents of violence specifically targeting officers. If it hasn't directly caused any of the situations, it has given a more permissable cultural environment for hardened criminal a______s who were just waiting around for an excuse to act violently.

I'd love to see BLM get dismantled. Anything that threatens the rule of law and those in uniform who protect it, is not in this countries best interest.

Kaso · « **Reply #44 on:** December 11, 2016, 11:01:06 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on December 11, 2016, 10:29:17 pm

If I had to guess, I'd say that BLM has probably sparked some of the incidents of violence specifically targeting officers. If it hasn't directly caused any of the situations...

But it absolutely has. Does 'Dallas' ring a bell?

booksmart · « **Reply #45 on:** December 12, 2016, 09:52:27 am »

Quote

On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded. Johnson was an Army Reserve Afghan War veteran who was reportedly angry over police shootings of black men and stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white police officers. The shooting happened at the end of a peaceful protest against police killings of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and Philando Castile in Falcon Heights, Minnesota, which had occurred in the preceding days.

Following the shooting, Johnson fled inside a building on the campus of El Centro College. Police followed him there, and a standoff ensued. In the early hours of July 8, police killed Johnson with a bomb attached to a remote control bomb disposal robot. It was the first time U.S. law enforcement used a robot to kill a suspect.

That one? Until Johnson opened fire, it was a peaceful event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

Quote

Officers opened negotiations for surrender but Johnson said he would speak to black police officers only. He also said that he acted alone and was not part of any group.

Or the one that happened a few days later by a "Sovereign citizen", in Baton Rouge?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Baton_Rouge_police_officers

I know there are a few guys on here who have expressed similar views (although not quite to that extreme).

I just did a Google for "BLM advocating violence". I got four hits from alt-right sites, all reporting the same incident in Portland.

I also got this one, from the Blaze "See How Black Lives Matter Protesters Respond to Sign Reportedly Advocating Violence Against Police".

Quote

During a seemingly peaceful Black Lives Matter protest in Atlanta Friday night, where thousands of activists are gathered near the CNN Center, one sign drew the ire of several protesters.

When a large gaggle of activists saw the sign, which reportedly advocated violence against police, they began protesting the individual holding it. Protesters could be heard chanting, “Peace, not violence,” while flashing a peace sign in the direction of the inflammatory poster.

So far as I know, all of the Atlanta protests were peaceful (to my surprise).

Before y'all get hopping mad about me defending Black Lives Matter, settle down. They're a social movement - just like any other social movement, there are going to be people on the fringes that advocate a more radical approach than what the leaders and speakers for a movement advocate. In this day and age of instant communication, anyone can paint themselves as "representing"a movement, and start shouting. Before you say "he represents everything they stand for," look for a response from the people actually standing in front of the cameras and microphones.

http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/

Kaso · « **Reply #46 on:** December 12, 2016, 10:25:48 am »

Yes, that one. Tell me, why does the rest of the country (all races, including black) not protest/riot/arson/assault when black 'separatists' ambush and kill cops?

'Calling for peace' is the easiest thing to do. Words are cheap. Taking action to insure that your sphere of influence respects and obeys the police takes a bit more time and effort.

booksmart · « **Reply #47 on:** December 12, 2016, 12:48:05 pm »

Why do white folk riot when their sports team wins?

Try a few hundred years of varying degrees of oppression, and see what your default response is. (For the record, I'm not going to wait around and see... got things to do. lol )

Kaso · « **Reply #48 on:** December 12, 2016, 01:20:11 pm »

Quote from: booksmart on December 12, 2016, 12:48:05 pm

Why do white folk riot when their sports team wins?

Good point. Though, how often does looting and arson play a part in that?

Quote from: booksmart on December 12, 2016, 12:48:05 pm

Try a few hundred years of varying degrees of oppression, and see what your default response is.

See, that is the problem: Blaming everyone but themselves for their condition. Let's say that you and I owned houses next to each other, in a bad area of town. Let's call it the ghetto. Both of our houses are neglected, and we both move in at the same time. You set about making the best of your home: Fresh coats of paint inside and out, flower boxes in the windows, and everything as clean as you can make it. You save up for whatever repairs and enhancements you can afford, and when the city helps out a bit for 'blight removal,' you redo the roof. You also work two jobs to make sure you are doing the most you can do. You make sure that everyone who visits your home removes their shoes, and that all polite manners are aggressively enforced. You still live in the slums, but your house is a shining example of what the neighborhood can be.

I, your neighbor, don't give my house any attention or repairs. IF I work, I spend my pay before I get it, and b____ about how it is not enough to live on. (and to be fair, it is not) My house continues to degrade while I live in it, and I only, maybe do any repairs when they become a risk to my health. My blight removal money is spent putting up a fence so no one can see the decay. I allow my children to smoke weed in the house, and why not - I do it too. The local government tries to help me out, but money does not fix my problems because I won't help myself. Both you and I live in the slums, but our lives are what we make of them.

Obviously these are two extremes, and few people are at either. The point is that blaming others for where you are at May be partially true, but it does nothing to help you, and only serves to increase animosity between you and the rest of your community.

booksmart · « **Reply #49 on:** December 12, 2016, 02:51:35 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on December 12, 2016, 01:20:11 pm

Good point. Though, how often does looting and arson play a part in that?

https://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-highlight-the-double-standard-of-reactions-to-riots-like-baltimore#.5v4s6cYZF

Probably not as rarely as you think...

Regarding your example - why limit it to the ghetto? Set it in the Appalachian mountains, where you can see very similar reactions to ground in, generational poverty. Poverty isn't just a racial issue. But it's also not the topic of the thread.