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Author Topic: Two More LEO's Killed...  (Read 3075 times)

Kaso

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2016, 04:54:53 PM »

Regarding your example - why limit it to the ghetto?  Set it in the Appalachian mountains, where you can see very similar reactions to ground in, generational poverty.  Poverty isn't just a racial issue. But it's also not the topic of the thread.

No, the thread is about law enforcement deaths, but generational poverty becomes relevant when used as a reason why an affected people may be inclined to act out and target cops.  You won't hear me justifying Backwoods Bob, if he decides to shoot at the tax/census/or F&W man.

Try a few hundred years of varying degrees of oppression, and see what your default response is.
I want to quote this again.  'A few hundred years?'  You are correct, for 250 years they were slaves, and then seriously repressed for another 100.  Yet right now - at this moment - the opportunities available to the black community have never been greater.  If you think they have, show me where in history. 

We are wrapping up the past eight years of having a black president, and we had a 'rags to riches story' black candidate do better than average in the spring primaries.  In the GOP, no less.  So you run to the explanation that the people acting out, are doing so because of past oppression?  Oppression that happened before the current batch of troublemakers was even born?  Yes, *that's* a solid argument to be proud of. ::)

I know it is trite, but in this country there really is no position a smart, hard worker can not attain in their field.  The only thing holding most people (all people, no qualifiers) back is themselves.
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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #51 on: December 12, 2016, 06:41:25 PM »
    The only thing holding most people (all people, no qualifiers) back is themselves their parents.

    Fixed that for ya.

    I agree completely that there has been no time in our countries history that opportunity has not been, societally, more equal across race.

    But, most of us are heavily handicapped by what our parents taught us.  And it is worse for many of these inner city kids who are taught that they can't get ahead because of who they are.  There is a lot of psychology here, but it results in a poverty cycle that doesn't stop, it just gets worse.

    And, before you all think you are exempt, I got some bad news.  We ALL have the same broken psychology.  It is just that the cycles we endure in suburban middle class and rural areas aren't as detrimental.
     
    Utah

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #52 on: December 12, 2016, 07:51:01 PM »
    "It is just that the cycles we endure in suburban middle class and rural areas aren't as detrimental."


    Uh, no.  If your upbringing in rural or even suburban middle class areas is "broken" then chances are that you will find it very hard (not impossible) to overcome and you will end up badly.


    Back to what I think this thread is about, police belong to that class of people who will go out and do what is needed to be done because people they may never know depend on them.  That included firefighters, paramedics, military, and even such mundane but dangerous jobs like utility linemen.  Those who would plan to murder such people are the worst form of wretched scum.
    Arizona

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #53 on: December 13, 2016, 09:16:04 AM »
    Most parents use the same parenting techniques on their children that the grandparents used on the parents.  And just because those techniques have a generally positive outcome, doesn't mean they are the best, or even good techniques.  It just means they are workable.
    Utah

    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #54 on: December 13, 2016, 09:21:05 AM »
    "It is just that the cycles we endure in suburban middle class and rural areas aren't as detrimental."

    Uh, no.  If your upbringing in rural or even suburban middle class areas is "broken" then chances are that you will find it very hard (not impossible) to overcome and you will end up badly.

    Yup.  Leaving home at an early age in rural or suburban areas may or may not let you have as many job opportunities to get on your feet.  I'm not saying there aren't any, just that the options may not be as varied as they would in an urban environment.

    Quote
    Back to what I think this thread is about, police belong to that class of people who will go out and do what is needed to be done because people they may never know depend on them.  That included firefighters, paramedics, military, and even such mundane but dangerous jobs like utility linemen.  Those who would plan to murder such people are the worst form of wretched scum.

    Also agreed.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #55 on: December 13, 2016, 10:08:24 AM »
    I'm starting to see shades of the old "Nature vs. Nurture" argument beginning to take shape.  And that's all well and good, but...  There is a point where that crap is just an excuse.

    There is a point in a person's life where they start making their own decisions, and must take responsibility for those decisions, as well as be held accountable for actions taken in association with those decisions.  This is where the whole thing breaks down, these punks do not fear consequences.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #56 on: December 13, 2016, 12:24:00 PM »

    Kaso

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #57 on: December 13, 2016, 01:26:49 PM »
    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/homeless-teen-bikes-6-hours-to-get-to-college-sleeps-in-tent/401160413

    Not really.  Some people are simply more determined than others.
    Well, 'yes really.'  Your article proves Freeman's point.  The kid in the story knows what he wants to do, knows what he has to do to make it happen, and he is willing to do anything necessary to get it done.  He is taking charge of his own success, not riding his parents coattails, or blaming society for 'keeping him down.'

    And good for him.  With a work ethic like that, I hope he goes far. :thumbup1
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    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #58 on: December 13, 2016, 02:10:24 PM »
    *waggles hand* My stance of Nature vs. Nurture is "Yes."

    They both play a part. 

    For example: My parents divorced when I was six, and I've seen my Dad (on average) less than once a year since. I still recognize mannerisms and personality traits of his that I have, and fight off others (like the alcoholism and the adultery, for instance).  I have a great step-father, whom I respect a great deal, and from whom I have learned a lot (how to look after family, for instance), but there are traits of his that I refuse to learn (his racism, for instance).

    freeman1685

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #59 on: December 13, 2016, 03:38:07 PM »
    booksmart, you do understand that "determination" is a decision, right?

    I too, am the product of a single parent family.  Just me, mom, and younger sister.  The sperm donor was in and out over the years, Also alcoholic, violently abusive, adulterous, and eventually a convicted sex offender (the victim was the 8 yr old daughter of his stepson).  He died last May, in a hospital bed, drowning in his own blood.  The last I spoke to him, was shortly after i got out of the Army, more than 20 yrs ago.

    Like you, I made a decision, I determined, many years ago, not to be anything like that sonofab____.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #60 on: December 13, 2016, 05:46:09 PM »
    We are getting so far from the topic of Police in the line of duty  :facepalm.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #61 on: December 13, 2016, 05:58:43 PM »
    Not as far as it may seem.  We are still discussing reasons that murdering LEOs is seen as acceptable by certain people, based on their upbringing and environment.
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    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #62 on: December 13, 2016, 06:19:54 PM »
    booksmart, you do understand that "determination" is a decision, right?

    I too, am the product of a single parent family.  Just me, mom, and younger sister.  The sperm donor was in and out over the years, Also alcoholic, violently abusive, adulterous, and eventually a convicted sex offender (the victim was the 8 yr old daughter of his stepson).  He died last May, in a hospital bed, drowning in his own blood.  The last I spoke to him, was shortly after i got out of the Army, more than 20 yrs ago.

    Like you, I made a decision, I determined, many years ago, not to be anything like that sonofab____.

    I do.

    And from your other posts on here, I know how far that determination has brought you.

    Good job, sir.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #63 on: December 13, 2016, 08:40:07 PM »
    Okay, so now we have an understanding.  Let us determine to bring this conversation back on topic (before someone charges us with felony thread drift  :neener ).

    The truth is, there are some truly evil motherfluffers out there.  They're thugs.  They don't need a reason, they're just looking for an excuse.  They decide, in spite of their upbringing, or even their environment to commit these heinous acts, and cry racial oppression.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #64 on: December 13, 2016, 09:10:28 PM »
    Okay, so now we have an understanding.  Let us determine to bring this conversation back on topic (before someone charges us with felony thread drift  :neener ).

    The truth is, there are some truly evil motherfluffers out there.  They're thugs.  They don't need a reason, they're just looking for an excuse.  They decide, in spite of their upbringing, or even their environment to commit these heinous acts, and cry racial oppression.

    Y'all behave now ;).

    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #65 on: December 13, 2016, 09:20:41 PM »
    The truth is, there are some truly evil motherfluffers out there.  They're thugs.
    Or, you know, 'superpredators.'  Those who know no law but force, and can only be dealt with by being 'brought to heel.'



    Just maybe.
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    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #66 on: December 13, 2016, 10:00:18 PM »
    The truth is, there are some truly evil motherfluffers out there.  They're thugs.  They don't need a reason, they're just looking for an excuse.  They decide, in spite of their upbringing, or even their environment to commit these heinous acts, and cry racial oppression.

    Careful with your paintbrush, Freeman.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iowa-police-shooting-scott-michael-greene-desperate-money/

    Scott Michael Greene is a white Trump supporter, who shot two cops (allegedly  :-\). 

    http://www.newsweek.com/who-kills-police-officers-315701

    The stats are a little out of date, but the article is worth reading.

    Quote
    In 2013, 44 percent of cop killers were white, 37 percent were black and 11 percent were Hispanic. Last year, 54 percent were white, 26 percent were black and 18 percent were Hispanic. In those years there was also one Native American, one Inuit man and one Chechen, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who is now on trial for the Boston Marathon bombing and is also accused of killing a Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer in the days after the bombing. (A district attorney said this week she would wait until after the Boston Marathon bombing trial to prosecute Tsarnaev for the officer’s killing.)

    Or, you know, 'superpredators.'  Those who know no law but force, and can only be dealt with by being 'brought to heel.'

    Just maybe.

    Yes, but those are *Very* rare.
    « Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 10:12:25 PM by booksmart »

    freeman1685

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #67 on: December 13, 2016, 10:05:31 PM »
    Careful with your paintbrush, Freeman.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iowa-police-shooting-scott-michael-greene-desperate-money/

    Scott Michael Greene is a white Trump supporter, who shot two cops (allegedly  :-\). 

    http://www.newsweek.com/who-kills-police-officers-315701

    The stats are a little out of date, but the article is worth reading.




    I believe we were talking about the recent ambush style killings.  In which case, I was using a paintball gun, with a scope.  :neener
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #68 on: December 13, 2016, 10:13:37 PM »
    Pretty sure we've widened from that narrow of a field...  ::)

    Kaso

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #69 on: December 14, 2016, 12:11:19 AM »
    You know what?  Forget it.  Maybe I am as blinded by what I think I should see as some others here.  And if that is the case, I'm done.
    « Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 12:23:17 AM by Kaso »
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    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #70 on: December 14, 2016, 09:44:25 AM »

    I believe we were talking about the recent ambush style killings.  In which case, I was using a paintball gun, with a scope.  :neener

    I don't know that I'd label "shooting a deputy serving a warrant" the same type of ambush killing as "shooting a cop in his patrol car while idling at a light".

    The first is reactionary, the second is actively hunting for a cop to shoot. (Note: this does not excuse either of them. Launch the book at 'em both with a good, solid air cannon... aim for the neck...)

    freeman1685

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #71 on: December 14, 2016, 09:56:53 AM »
    I don't know that I'd label "shooting a deputy serving a warrant" the same type of ambush killing as "shooting a cop in his patrol car while idling at a light".

    The first is reactionary, the second is actively hunting for a cop to shoot. (Note: this does not excuse either of them. Launch the book at 'em both with a good, solid air cannon... aim for the neck...)

    I'd lay odds that the first guy knew there was a warrant out for him, and had determined that he was not going peacefully.  Chances are, he was laying in wait for the cops to show up, and when the Deputy showed up, the guy answered the door with a gun.  If that doesn't fit the description of ambush...

    In hunting terms, that's the difference between setting a snare, or stalking the prey.  Either way, it's premeditated murder.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    booksmart

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #72 on: December 14, 2016, 10:13:33 AM »
    I'd lay odds that the first guy knew there was a warrant out for him, and had determined that he was not going peacefully.  Chances are, he was laying in wait for the cops to show up, and when the Deputy showed up, the guy answered the door with a gun.  If that doesn't fit the description of ambush...

    In hunting terms, that's the difference between setting a snare, or stalking the prey.  Either way, it's premeditated murder.

    Knew there was a warrant - obviously
    Answered the door with a gun - obviously
    Laying in wait for the cops - I doubt it. Most likely scenarios are they either received a tip he was there and tried to surprise him, or that was his last known address and they didn't really expect him to be there.  I think an "Oh, s__, it's the cops!" situation is more likely than "About time they got here."

    I agree it's splitting hairs as far as the end result, but it is an important distinction, as it describes completely different mindsets and intent.

    sarge712

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #73 on: December 16, 2016, 08:00:58 PM »
    Okay, so now we have an understanding.  Let us determine to bring this conversation back on topic (before someone charges us with felony thread drift  :neener ).

    The truth is, there are some truly evil motherfluffers out there.  They're thugs.  They don't need a reason

    I call them the 1%.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
    « Reply #74 on: December 16, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
    I call them the 1%.

    I wish I could be as optimistic to think it was only 1%.

    For instance, while mental health and criminal behaviour are completely separate, antisocial behaviour is very well linked to criminal behaviour. Personality disorders affect 15% of the population despite national and cultural boundaries and while there are many other clusters of personality disorders, I still believe that that leaves room for quite a few people left with a disease that leaves them prone to a lack of empathy and asserting their will on others.

    I'm not talking out of my butt on this one, either. My sources are Varcarolis' clinical text.


    Now time for me to talk out my rear end with completely unsubstantiated anecdote  ;).

    We have read of the really bad crimes that I've mentioned before, one's that make it to the MSM and hold the nations attention for weeks, but I feel it's much like the situations of good law abiding citizens defending themselves from crime. Yes, the truly spectacular cases make it to the news, but how many times do we not hear about the criminal who horribly slaughtered someone in their home or an alley way? Or how many times do we hear when good, law abiding people have defended themselves by merely brandishing a firearm? Situtations like that don't get much news time, if any. There is a large dark figure when it comes to crimes not reported and an even larger number on one's that are reported, but don't make it to the public eye.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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