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Author Topic: Two More LEO's Killed...  (Read 2967 times)

GaBoy45

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Two More LEO's Killed...
« on: November 09, 2016, 01:33:40 PM »
Sunday, a little before 6pm, I was headed into work when I heard the call we all dread. "Be advised we have officers down. Requesting any available units."

The next county over had two deputies shot and killed. Another agency responded and took the suspect down.

I can say that I was proud of the response. A total of 6 agencies, including my own, covering 3 counties and state patrol responded at the drop of a hat. But the line is down two more brothers.

http://www.13wmaz.com/mb/news/local/breaking-second-deputy-dies-after-peach-county-shooting/349984102

https://www.google.com/amp/www.13wmaz.com/amp//news/local/gbi-byron-suspect-in-peach-deputys-death-fired-more-than-50-shots/349284949?client=safari



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MTK20

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2016, 01:42:18 PM »
My condolences.

I must admit that I am also interested in why a man with apparent open support for law enforcement, would fire upon officers?
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

wyatt

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 04:44:34 PM »
My condolences.

I must admit that I am also interested in why a man with apparent open support for law enforcement, would fire upon officers?

Because he's a nut?  :coffee

First Shirt

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2016, 10:38:33 AM »
Prayers sent.  If their is anything else we can do, please let us know.
Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2016, 11:26:53 AM »
Yes.  A prayer for all those who go in harm's way on our behalf and especially those who have payed the ultimate price.   I hope the families of the fallen can find the strength and support they will need to make it through this time of grief.  As the First Shirt said, let us know if we can be of assistance. 
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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2016, 03:29:36 PM »

aikorob

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 11:16:01 PM »
Damn.   Just damn.      :facepalm
Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 11:37:59 PM »
Makes my stomach clench. Out of all the federal agencies I work with, the USMS are the most down to earth and street wise. I've never met a bad one yet.

It says a ton that he was the first one through the door.
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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2016, 09:28:47 PM »
Seems like another incident almost weekly now.   >:(
Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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Plebian

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2016, 10:16:10 PM »
Seems like another incident almost weekly now.   >:(

US has a pretty large population. I would assume there are 10s of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of LEOs out and about everyday. If you have numbers like that running around there are bound to be incidents of all types.

It doesn't make any deaths or injuries less tragic, but it does make them not unexpected.
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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2016, 10:26:19 PM »
Well, given the nature of the work they do it may be true but there seems to be a marked upward trend in the number of assaults on officers of the law.
Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                      Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

GaBoy45

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2016, 11:01:19 PM »
Both Officers have passed and the POS committed suicide when holed up by LEOs.

One officer, Officer Smarr died from his wounds while performing CPR on the other officer.


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coelacanth

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2016, 11:04:35 PM »
The word "hero" seems inadequate to describe such a person. 
Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                      Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

MTK20

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2016, 11:07:11 PM »
Well, given the nature of the work they do it may be true but there seems to be a marked upward trend in the number of assaults on officers of the law.

I would agree. One of our LEO's said that out of an average of 150 officer deaths a year, that an average of 50 are from violence and 100 are from automobile accidents.

That being said, we are living in a culture where those who put on a uniform and protect us, are given no respect by the communities they serve. Between Obama and his race baiting hooligans, the racial collectivist group black lives matter, and a media that vilifies police and publicly gets off from their losses (both political, career, and physical injury/deaths)- I'm not even sure why they do what they do. Jeff Cooper may have said that police work is becoming more and more of a bureaucracy, but there are still very good cops out there. How the cultural zeitgeist has moved the passions of the majority of the public to band against our LEO's is beyond me, but with my own eyes I'm seeing it happen.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm pissed. You don't fluff with medical professionals and you don't fluff with cops. Those two groups are what sustain the little faith in humanity I have left.

ETA:

Both Officers have passed and the POS committed suicide when holed up by LEOs.

One officer, Officer Smarr died from his wounds while performing CPR on the other officer.


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The word "hero" seems inadequate to describe such a person. 

Agreed.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

booksmart

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2016, 09:30:52 AM »
I would agree. One of our LEO's said that out of an average of 150 officer deaths a year, that an average of 50 are from violence and 100 are from automobile accidents.

Over the past few months, maybe, but the overall trend has been falling steadily since the '70s.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/07/killed-in-the-line-of-duty/

Quote
You don't fluff with medical professionals and you don't fluff with cops. Those two groups are what sustain the little faith in humanity I have left.

ETA:

Agreed.

Ditto.

Chief45

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2016, 10:24:30 AM »
We've seen national wide initiatives to try and reduce the number of LoD deaths from all causes, traffic accidents, heart attack while on duty, training injuries and deaths, and from violent encounters.  That is the Below 100 goal.   We'd been doing pretty good over all.  Training on keeping calm, training on emergency vehicle operations, training on tactical placement of vehicles when making traffic stops, more emphasis on physical fitness, emphasis on preventive medical care, dealing with stress relief, appropriate stress relief.   All of which is stuff we can train our people on and try to keep them on the job and keep them coming home.

It's a lot harder to do on things we don't have any or much control over.  Such as going on a domestic call and someone else starts shooting at you.   Or working crowd security at a protest and a sniper starts shooting and kills 5 of your brothers.  So, yeah,  overall,  dead is dead,  I get that, and yeah, over all we've been trending down on officer deaths.  But the patrol areas becoming active combat zones ?   yeah, we get training for that, we practice tactics and strategies, but there is only so much you can do to prevent and the bad guy always has the initiative.  He gets to pick when and where he engages, he gets to pick when he starts the ball rolling. 

so,  you might want to rethink that just a bit.  A trooper getting hit by a drunk driver on a freeway,  an officer having a heart attack on duty, a deputy responding to a domestic battery in progress and hits a deer on the way to that call,  that's part of it.  we get that.  But cops doing their job and someone uninvolved starts shooting at them,  or someone fakes a call and sets up an ambush just so they can take a shot at a cop ? 

The implication that it does not matter how the cop dies, is a bit disturbing.











Over the past few months, maybe, but the overall trend has been falling steadily since the '70s.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/07/killed-in-the-line-of-duty/

Ditto.
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Chief45

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2016, 11:11:39 AM »
.
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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2016, 12:02:41 PM »
1.  We've seen national wide initiatives to try and reduce the number of LoD deaths from all causes, traffic accidents, heart attack while on duty, training injuries and deaths, and from violent encounters.  That is the Below 100 goal.   We'd been doing pretty good over all.  Training on keeping calm, training on emergency vehicle operations, training on tactical placement of vehicles when making traffic stops, more emphasis on physical fitness, emphasis on preventive medical care, dealing with stress relief, appropriate stress relief.   All of which is stuff we can train our people on and try to keep them on the job and keep them coming home.

2.  But cops doing their job and someone uninvolved starts shooting at them,  or someone fakes a call and sets up an ambush just so they can take a shot at a cop ? 

The implication that it does not matter how the cop dies, is a bit disturbing.

1. It is great to try and reduce deaths in the line of duty, but at what point do you determine you are throwing effort and money away in diminishing returns. What is the acceptable loss rate?

The statistics I have looked at seem to indicate LEO work is somewhat dangerous, but nowhere near the top 10 for deaths on the job. When you get down into a hundred of incidents per multiple hundreds of thousands you are solidly in the tyranny of the smalls area. Where tiny occurrences seem to be trends, but are really just nothing but statistical 'noise'.

2. Instances such as these cannot be a new thing. When I was just a teenager the local sheriff got popped on a call out by someone set in ambush for the fellow. It is a chance I assume every cop knows from day one.

How the cop dies does matter somewhat, but it can lead to wrong assumptions on cause and effect relationships. If overall death rate is dropping then the chance occurrences will inherently show up as larger percentages.   
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MTK20

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 12:27:07 PM »
1. It is great to try and reduce deaths in the line of duty, but at what point do you determine you are throwing effort and money away in diminishing returns. What is the acceptable loss rate?

The statistics I have looked at seem to indicate LEO work is somewhat dangerous, but nowhere near the top 10 for deaths on the job. When you get down into a hundred of incidents per multiple hundreds of thousands you are solidly in the tyranny of the smalls area. Where tiny occurrences seem to be trends, but are really just nothing but statistical 'noise'.

2. Instances such as these cannot be a new thing. When I was just a teenager the local sheriff got popped on a call out by someone set in ambush for the fellow. It is a chance I assume every cop knows from day one.

How the cop dies does matter somewhat, but it can lead to wrong assumptions on cause and effect relationships. If overall death rate is dropping then the chance occurrences will inherently show up as larger percentages.

Plebian, what do you do for a living? I've noticed that you seem quite well versed in numbers, statistics, and epidemiology. This isn't the first post with which you've weighed in with similar information.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

Chief45

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2016, 02:34:42 PM »
well, I don't totally disagree with your premises.

let me share something, so everyone else will be looking at the same type of numbers.

2014 Rank    Occupation    Fatal Injuries per 100,000 people    Total deaths
1    Logging workers    110.9    78
2    Fishers and related fishing workers    80.8    22
3    Aircraft pilots and flight engineers    64    82
4    Roofers    47.4    83
5    Refuse and recyclable material collectors    35.8    27
6    Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers    26.7    270
7    Structural iron and steel workers    25.2    15
8    Driver/sales workers and truck drivers    24.7    880
9    Electrical power-line installers and repairers    19.2    25
10    Taxi drivers and chauffeurs    18    68
11    First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers    17.9    130
12    Construction laborers    16.9    208
13    First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers    16.4    33
14    Maintenance and repairs workers, general    14.4    68
15    Police and sheriff's patrol officers    13.5    97
16    Grounds maintenance workers    13.1    158
17    First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers, and repairers    12.3    38
18    Painters, construction and maintenance    10.8    46
19    Electricians    10.4    79
20    Telecommunications line installers and repairers    10    19

http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/

I'm guessing that the stat's you've looked at are similar.

But let me point out the single major difference. 

Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20,   ALL have one thing in common.

They generally don't have someone shooting at them as a large factor in their cause of death.

so, like I said,  I get your viewpoint,  dead is dead.   Please, understand mine.  Apples and oranges.

and understand the next biggest factor.   for numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, what would happen if nationwide, some body set them up and started shooting them at random.   

simple answer,  they would not go to work.   

We do.  every day, every night, every holiday, every shift, everywhere.

Our brothers and sisters in the Fire service and EMS service and the hospital ER's do also.
Our son's and brothers in the military do as well.
Until those other numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20) hold themselves to the same standards, I don't really care to hear about how deadly their job is.  how dangerous it is to work with electrical lines or power equipment or the host of other things they can actually take control of.

To you, it is apparent, dead is dead no matter how it happens. that's life, suck it up buttercup.

to me,  My family is under attack. 










1. It is great to try and reduce deaths in the line of duty, but at what point do you determine you are throwing effort and money away in diminishing returns. What is the acceptable loss rate?

The statistics I have looked at seem to indicate LEO work is somewhat dangerous, but nowhere near the top 10 for deaths on the job. When you get down into a hundred of incidents per multiple hundreds of thousands you are solidly in the tyranny of the smalls area. Where tiny occurrences seem to be trends, but are really just nothing but statistical 'noise'.

2. Instances such as these cannot be a new thing. When I was just a teenager the local sheriff got popped on a call out by someone set in ambush for the fellow. It is a chance I assume every cop knows from day one.

How the cop dies does matter somewhat, but it can lead to wrong assumptions on cause and effect relationships. If overall death rate is dropping then the chance occurrences will inherently show up as larger percentages.
KansasUN-Retired LEO.

Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

MTK20

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2016, 03:03:55 PM »
well, I don't totally disagree with your premises.

let me share something, so everyone else will be looking at the same type of numbers.

2014 Rank    Occupation    Fatal Injuries per 100,000 people    Total deaths
1    Logging workers    110.9    78
2    Fishers and related fishing workers    80.8    22
3    Aircraft pilots and flight engineers    64    82
4    Roofers    47.4    83
5    Refuse and recyclable material collectors    35.8    27
6    Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers    26.7    270
7    Structural iron and steel workers    25.2    15
8    Driver/sales workers and truck drivers    24.7    880
9    Electrical power-line installers and repairers    19.2    25
10    Taxi drivers and chauffeurs    18    68
11    First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers    17.9    130
12    Construction laborers    16.9    208
13    First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers    16.4    33
14    Maintenance and repairs workers, general    14.4    68
15    Police and sheriff's patrol officers    13.5    97
16    Grounds maintenance workers    13.1    158
17    First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers, and repairers    12.3    38
18    Painters, construction and maintenance    10.8    46
19    Electricians    10.4    79
20    Telecommunications line installers and repairers    10    19

http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/

I'm guessing that the stat's you've looked at are similar.

But let me point out the single major difference. 

Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20,   ALL have one thing in common.

They generally don't have someone shooting at them as a large factor in their cause of death.

so, like I said,  I get your viewpoint,  dead is dead.   Please, understand mine.  Apples and oranges.

and understand the next biggest factor.   for numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, what would happen if nationwide, some body set them up and started shooting them at random.   

simple answer,  they would not go to work.   

We do.  every day, every night, every holiday, every shift, everywhere.

Our brothers and sisters in the Fire service and EMS service and the hospital ER's do also.
Our son's and brothers in the military do as well.
Until those other numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20) hold themselves to the same standards, I don't really care to hear about how deadly their job is.  how dangerous it is to work with electrical lines or power equipment or the host of other things they can actually take control of.

To you, it is apparent, dead is dead no matter how it happens. that's life, suck it up buttercup.

to me,  My family is under attack.

Agreed  :thumbup1

Like I said in my previous post, I don't know why y'all suit up everyday with the public opinion as it is.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2016, 03:32:57 PM »
The main issue is the call out and ambush causes of death really rising for cops, OR is all the other numbers going down and they are rising as a percentage but not in ratio with population overall.

Since the overall numbers are dropping for cops killed in the line of duty. It would take nearly all cop deaths being attributed to ambush murders for them to grow in ratio with overall numbers.

Violent deaths among taxi drivers and store clerks are about in percentage with LEO violent deaths. Are their apples the same as cop apples, or are they oranges as well?

I would also still like to point out. Cops are not most likely to end up dead by being shot. They die by the same means most of the other dangerous professions do. They get killed by that most menacing of incidents, the motor vehicle accident. 
Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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Re: Two More LEO's Killed...
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2016, 03:45:54 PM »

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