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Author Topic: Terrorism du jour in France  (Read 3504 times)

freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2016, 03:53:24 AM »
That's the wonderful thing about the First Amendment, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Unless of course you are a Muslim, then you are entitled to Mohammed's opinion, whether you want it or not.

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2016, 04:03:00 AM »
Since this thread is about done, and everyone has made their point, let me ask a hypothetical:  If infringing on rights because someone 'might' commit a crime is wrong, what if they will commit a crime?  Obviously you can never know 100%, that is why it is hypothetical...  But what if you could know 100% for certain that a person would commit a crime?  Can you in good conscience infringe on their rights to stop them?
If you knew that someone would definitely, 100% certain, commit a crime, then you wouldn't be infringing on their rights, you would be Constitutionally bound to stop them.

"We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, ESTABLISH JUSTICE, INSURE DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY, PROVIDE FOR THE COMMON DEFENCE, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE... etc."

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

Chief45

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2016, 09:47:37 AM »
I disagree.

I cannot act until and unless someone does something. 

Their intentions (and that's a hole nother can of worms), without something to further a crime, are not sufficient for law enforcement to respond.






If you knew that someone would definitely, 100% certain, commit a crime, then you wouldn't be infringing on their rights, you would be Constitutionally bound to stop them.

"We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, ESTABLISH JUSTICE, INSURE DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY, PROVIDE FOR THE COMMON DEFENCE, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE... etc."

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sqlbullet

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2016, 10:24:28 AM »
Here come the pre-cogs. 
Utah

freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2016, 10:34:17 AM »
So, let's go back to the night of the Dallas shooting.  You see Micah Johnson, gun in hand, setting up his sniper position.  Now, he has yet to fire a single shot.  You're gonna wait for him to pull the trigger?  No, you're going to draw down on him, and if he doesn't do exactly what you tell him, you're going too dump at least two center mass.
Let's take a different tack.  You see Abdul get out of his car in front of Wally World, AK-47 in hand, shouting "ALOHA SNACK BAR!!!" You gonna wait for the bodies to start piling up?  At this point, no crime has been committed, you just have a guy exercising his first, and second amendment rights, right?

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

Kaso

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2016, 10:43:17 AM »
Both of those would be cause for the officer to confront the suspect, and probably draw a weapon on him, but not enough to actually take a shot.  Yet.  Until the suspect fails to follow commands or threatens to shoot.
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MTK20

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2016, 10:43:25 AM »
So, let's go back to the night of the Dallas shooting.  You see Micah Johnson, gun in hand, setting up his sniper position.  Now, he has yet to fire a single shot.  You're gonna wait for him to pull the trigger?  No, you're going to draw down on him, and if he doesn't do exactly what you tell him, you're going too dump at least two center mass.
Let's take a different tack.  You see Abdul get out of his car in front of Wally World, AK-47 in hand, shouting "ALOHA SNACK BAR!!!" You gonna wait for the bodies to start piling up?  At this point, no crime has been committed, you just have a guy exercising his first, and second amendment rights, right?

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If we wish to get really technical the officer hasn't started the arresting process at this point. He simply unholsters his duty weapon (like the bad guy) and shouts some warnings  ::). At that point both parties are preparing, yet haven't done anything: the BG is preparing for crime, the officer is preparing for defense/arrest  ::).

I disagree.

I cannot act until and unless someone does something. 

Their intentions (and that's a hole nother can of worms), without something to further a crime, are not sufficient for law enforcement to respond.







I've been trying to stay out of this, but I agree with Chief.
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Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2016, 10:47:20 AM »
You are absolutely right, both parties are at the preparatory stage. But lo and behold, a crime has been averted. :facepalm

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2016, 10:49:58 AM »
Both of those would be cause for the officer to confront the suspect, and probably draw a weapon on him, but not enough to actually take a shot.  Yet.  Until the suspect fails to follow commands or threatens to shoot.
I never said anything about "taking a shot." I said that an individual would be Constitutionally bound to stop the criminal act.

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

Chief45

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2016, 12:51:15 PM »
You missed my point.

in both of those instances,  the subject HAS done something to further the act.  He has a gun, he has prepared gear to do "something", he has gone to a location where opportunity exists, he has the capability to inflict harm or commit some crime,  while he has not, as yet, begun to inflict jeopardy, his "actions" thus far, have risen to the level where it has gone above simple suspicious activity, and a law enforcement officer, or anyone worth his salt, would investigate.

Your original post implied only capability, with nothing further having been done yet.  He's still sitting in his living room, ranting on social media about something he wants to do, but has not done anything yet.

but in your scenarios,  he has.   The triangle is Capability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.  and I would have to show all 3 exist or that the first 2 exist and that the threat of jeopardy is immediately present.

Even with that,  I think we're saying the same thing,  just the difference between over view and drilling down to details.


So, let's go back to the night of the Dallas shooting.  You see Micah Johnson, gun in hand, setting up his sniper position.  Now, he has yet to fire a single shot.  You're gonna wait for him to pull the trigger?  No, you're going to draw down on him, and if he doesn't do exactly what you tell him, you're going too dump at least two center mass.
Let's take a different tack.  You see Abdul get out of his car in front of Wally World, AK-47 in hand, shouting "ALOHA SNACK BAR!!!" You gonna wait for the bodies to start piling up?  At this point, no crime has been committed, you just have a guy exercising his first, and second amendment rights, right?

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KansasUN-Retired LEO.

Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

freeman1685

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2016, 12:52:33 PM »
Yeah, you are a LEO, I am not.

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ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

JesseL

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2016, 01:33:03 PM »
Since this thread is about done, and everyone has made their point, let me ask a hypothetical:  If infringing on rights because someone 'might' commit a crime is wrong, what if they will commit a crime?  Obviously you can never know 100%, that is why it is hypothetical...  But what if you could know 100% for certain that a person would commit a crime?  Can you in good conscience infringe on their rights to stop them?


Being able to accurately see the future opens up an amazing number of possibilities, many of which are a lot more simple or subtle than cracking down on future criminals like Minority Report.

In a sense, that's explored in more realistic terms here:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/04/alternatives_to.html
Arizona

coelacanth

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2016, 03:24:40 AM »
Good discussion but where in all this does the idea of taqiyya fit?  When you are dealing with Islam and sharia law you are dealing with a group of people who see it as their duty to lie to the infidel and conceal any truth that might hinder the spread of their religion and culture.
 
 You can't very well force a muslim to place his hand upon the quran and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - especially when the book itself absolves him from any such compulsion.   You can't even depend on basic western ideas of honesty and fair dealing when interacting with such people.

  Our constitution was not written for those who reject the basic tenets of western civilization and the societies that sprang from it.  It unintentionally confers a tactical advantage to those whose principal aim is to tear it down, overthrow it and replace it with sharia law and a caliphate. 
Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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RetroGrouch

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2016, 03:59:00 AM »
All sorts of religious activities that the members of said religion have agreed to are illegal by law and those laws ruled constitutional by no less than the SCOTUS. 


Just because a lot of people beliece something, that doesn't mean it isn't a cult, or worse.  For sample, a lot of people follow Scientology, but it is a tax evasion scam dreamed up in a bar at a SciFi convention as the result of a bet.
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Kaso

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2016, 08:55:47 AM »
Good discussion but where in all this does the idea of taqiyya fit?  When you are dealing with Islam and sharia law you are dealing with a group of people who see it as their duty to lie to the infidel and conceal any truth that might hinder the spread of their religion and culture.

 You can't very well force a muslim to place his hand upon the quran and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - especially when the book itself absolves him from any such compulsion.   You can't even depend on basic western ideas of honesty and fair dealing when interacting with such people.

  Our constitution was not written for those who reject the basic tenets of western civilization and the societies that sprang from it.  It unintentionally confers a tactical advantage to those whose principal aim is to tear it down, overthrow it and replace it with sharia law and a caliphate.
To be honest, I think the battle is hopeless.  The only chance of hope is for moderate muslims to 'convert' the literalists to a peaceful way.  They might try, they might not.  Even if they do, we are pretty well too late to stop what comes next.  We are going to see an increase in muslim attacks around the world, including here in America.  Combined with the BLM asshattery, our society is quickly spiraling beyond the point of saving it within the law.  The regular people in this country will only stand for so much before they demand that the government 'do something.'  When that fails to achieve the desired goal, I predict a muslim/minority/anyone-not-like-me Kristallnacht will soon occur.

Viewed in that light, I feel the best thing for muslims and minorities would be a Trump administration.  He is not their friend, per say, but he will give the impression of 'doing something' about the unrest and attacks that might be enough to mitigate or avoid any extrajudicial citizen action.
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