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Author Topic: Terrorism du jour in France  (Read 4366 times)

MTK20

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Re: Terrorism du jour in France
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2016, 03:56:28 PM »
Dispute resolution,  binding arbitration, etc.  - all these are common in this country and tend to work very well.  Where you get into trouble with sharia is that it prescribes not just the crime but also the punishment to be meted out.  Even a cursory examination of how other societies implement sharia law will quickly give you the idea that it is just not compatible with the entire structure of western civilization.   It is not simply a religious conviction but a whole socio-economic system that is administered from the top down.   Not going to work here unless we completely give up on the ideas the country was founded upon.

Thank you for reinforcing this point, I swore I wrote down the words "prefer corporeal punishment" but somehow that but was glazed over  :banghead.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #26 on: July 19, 2016, 04:33:38 PM »
    Again, not even talking about crimes and definitely not punishments. At most, only matters that might involve restitution.

    There's obviously no legal way for any private organization in the US to physically punish or incarcerate anyone.
    Arizona

    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #27 on: July 19, 2016, 04:43:56 PM »
    Agreed but the problem in Europe is, once it gets established on a neighborhood level you end up with what is essentially a self-governing little ghetto that does not respond well to outside influences.  That's how you end up with the famous "no go zones" .  Again - not really workable here unless you wish to completely transform our society.   :hmm
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #28 on: July 19, 2016, 04:47:41 PM »
    But you still can't ban it without violating the first amendment.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #29 on: July 19, 2016, 04:50:07 PM »
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #30 on: July 19, 2016, 04:50:53 PM »
    There's obviously no legal way for any private organization in the US to physically punish or incarcerate anyone.
    Correct.  Which is why a literal interpretation of islam will never be compatible with US society.  The radicals/literalists do desire that power.  The power to judge and punish not just themselves, but All people by their standards.  The more moderate/less observant factions do not desire this, wanting only to be left alone and get along in society.  You know this probably better than anyone else here.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #31 on: July 19, 2016, 04:52:50 PM »
    But you still can't ban it without violating the first amendment.
    Of course you can.  If you can shut down a Christian bakery for not baking a cake for a gay wedding you can certainly prohibit sharia law on the same grounds.  Do I feel like both would be a violation of the first amendment?  Yup.  That said, the precedent has been established and nothing in the bill of rights can be construed as a suicide pact to any reasonable person. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #32 on: July 19, 2016, 05:01:15 PM »
    But you still can't ban it without violating the first amendment.
    Once again you are correct.  Coelecanth is wrong - the Christian bakery is a violation as well.  Two wrongs, and all...  Yet, should the first amendment be extended to our enemies in time of war?

    No...  Not all muslims are the enemy.  But...  Until the moderates purge the radicals, islam itself is.  Every faith will always have trouble makers, and a few should not spoil the party for the rest, but if a reasonably large percentage wants to subvert Western Society, should we just let them?

    In a more extreme example, the ancient Aztec religion that included human sacrifice would not be protected by the first amendment.  That same religion without the sacrifices would be.

    So until islam reforms...  Until they purge jihad from their belief systems...  I can not support allowing them their own little court system, unless, perhaps, if it was under public observation/supervision.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #33 on: July 19, 2016, 05:08:38 PM »
    I think there's an echo in here .  .  .   
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #34 on: July 19, 2016, 05:55:35 PM »
    I favor protecting their rights, but stomping all over them if they stray beyond what's protected and start trying to interfere in the official legal system or the rights of anyone else.
    Arizona

    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #35 on: July 19, 2016, 05:58:02 PM »
    Fair enough.  I can live with that. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #36 on: July 19, 2016, 06:10:37 PM »
    That really sums up my feelings about everyone.
    Arizona

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #37 on: July 20, 2016, 03:42:34 PM »
    Sharia court solution to a domestic squabble by neighbors:   Muslim wife A and Muslim wife B are upset with each other about a minor matter.  Say wife a bought the last (fill in the blank) in the grocery store, knowing that Muslim wife B wanted it.

    They go to Sharia court.  Instead of saying that Muslim wife A should share with B or give B the product, with B to pay for it, the court says to the husbands:  Go home and beat your wives so that they will no longer complain to us about their problems.  Or tells husband A to beat his wife because she was thoughtless.  Or beat your wife because (fill in the blank).

    Or the wife may be directed to LET her husband beat her senseless.  Wives are just property, after all.

    Or the court may authorize some sort of "shame" or "family honor" physical punishment for what we would consider purely civil remedies that are resolved monetarily.

    My point is that Sharia law, even voluntary, may well contain punitive remedies that no constitutionally bound civll court would ever condone.  Even "consent" by the recipient of such punishment would be unconstitutional.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #38 on: July 20, 2016, 04:00:25 PM »
    And that's OBVIOUSLY not legal.

    But I am curious, how exactly would you go about preventing people from helping each other to mediate each others disputes?
    Arizona

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #39 on: July 20, 2016, 04:53:05 PM »
    And that's OBVIOUSLY not legal.
      I think our differences of position stem from the fact that you believe that if we allow small matter civil sharia courts, the muslims will be content with that, and never attempt to gain authority over greater matters.  I do not believe they will stop there, and I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way.

    Maybe the muslims that you know would stop there, but then, the muslims you know are not, and have never been the problem.  The radicals/literalists are who give me concern, and I don't fancy yielding an inch as long as they make up a sizeable chunk of the religion.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #40 on: July 20, 2016, 05:02:17 PM »
    It doesn't matter if they will or won't be content with that.

    We can't start stripping people's constitutional rights on the basis of being pretty sure they're going to break the law in the future.

    Until they actually commit crimes, they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.

    Be careful, because the same reasoning you use to violate someone else's rights today will be used to violate your rights tomorrow.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #41 on: July 20, 2016, 05:10:38 PM »
    It doesn't matter if they will or won't be content with that.

    We can't start stripping people's constitutional rights on the basis of being pretty sure they're going to break the law in the future.

    Until they actually commit crimes, they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.

    Be careful, because the same reasoning you use to violate someone else's rights today will be used to violate your rights tomorrow.

    I'm starting to get what you're saying. Ron Paul made a statement like this too:

    Quote
    No one says you can't publish a book because you might libel someone.

    No one says you can't own a sports car because you might speed.

    And no one can say you can't own a gun because you might commit a crime.

    Innocent until proven guilty means just that.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #42 on: July 20, 2016, 06:12:12 PM »
    We can't start stripping people's constitutional rights on the basis of being pretty sure they're going to break the law in the future.

    Until they actually commit crimes, they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.
    The difference is - and I strongly believe - islam is our enemy.  No, individual muslims are not our enemy; as it stands now, their religion itself is.  We know their goals.  We can see now in Syria what they would like to turn the world into.  It's not pretty, and certainly not from a libertarian point of view.

    We can not give this enemy benefit of doubt.  We first must see to it that they are not willing to or capable of harming us.  Make sure they are not our enemies.

    To that end, once again I'll say it: moderate muslims (by which I mean the ones that favor living side by side with the infidel rather than destroying him) need to step up to bat, and take the lead on moderating their religion.  We can't do it - they have to.  Even further, they must.  If any individual muslim will not publicly and without reservation condemn ISIS and violence against non muslims, he must be viewed as a potential enemy. 

    If any muslim will publicly condemn such, and work to moderate his fellows, he is viewed as my friend and neighbor.  He may be lying of course, and may be the next 6'oclock news header...  But that is where we will always have risks in a free society. 
    « Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 06:58:03 PM by Kaso »
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #43 on: July 20, 2016, 10:21:55 PM »
    It doesn't matter if they will or won't be content with that.

    We can't start stripping people's constitutional rights on the basis of being pretty sure they're going to break the law in the future.

    Until they actually commit crimes, they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.

    Be careful, because the same reasoning you use to violate someone else's rights today will be used to violate your rights tomorrow.
    Without going into the specific details, I will simply state that I am not a follower of the Judeo-Christian belief.
    If I were to exercise a particular aspect of my spiritual philosophy, it would end with me being arrested for indecent exposure, and likely ending up as a registered sex offender.
    How is that Constitutional, and banning Sharia not?
    I can say with some surety that I find the whole idea of allowing the implementation of even the smallest fraction of Sharia within the US, to be as offensive you would find my walking around naked.

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    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #44 on: July 20, 2016, 11:15:50 PM »
    I find nudity no more offensive than peope dealing with one another by mutual consent under whatever rules they choose, and vastly less offensive than the government preemptively infringo on people's rights.
    Arizona

    freeman1685

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #45 on: July 21, 2016, 03:17:29 AM »
    That's fine, but then I don't consider the current version of Islam to be a true religion, but more a cult.  While I may not follow the philosophy, it doesn't change the fact that I was born a Jew.  With that in mind, I happen to know that the children of Isaac, and the children of Ishmael are not enemies.  To prove my point: Jethro the father of Moses's wife was a "Child of Ishmael," and welcomed Moses into his tent.
    The so called "prophet" Mohammed, was a homosexual pederast, who hated his own mother. And who's prophecies were nothing more than drug induced hallucinations.


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    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #46 on: July 21, 2016, 03:26:33 AM »
    I was trying to argue with a form of logic, but okay...

    How is any of that relevant to anything? 
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #47 on: July 21, 2016, 03:33:10 AM »
    It's as relevant as anything else.  Freedom of religion is one thing, and I am all for it. But I don't consider Islam to be any more a religion than what Charles Manson preached to his followers.

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    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #48 on: July 21, 2016, 03:45:44 AM »
    It's as relevant as anything else.  Freedom of religion is one thing, and I am all for it. But I don't consider Islam to be any more a religion than what Charles Manson preached to his followers.
    I do consider it a legitimate religion, (anything with 1 billion followers would have to be) but the members have some 'housekeeping' to do before I can call it 'civilized.'
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #49 on: July 21, 2016, 03:52:53 AM »
    I find nudity no more offensive than peope dealing with one another by mutual consent under whatever rules they choose, and vastly less offensive than the government preemptively infringing on people's rights.
    Since this thread is about done, and everyone has made their point, let me ask a hypothetical:  If infringing on rights because someone 'might' commit a crime is wrong, what if they will commit a crime?  Obviously you can never know 100%, that is why it is hypothetical...  But what if you could know 100% for certain that a person would commit a crime?  Can you in good conscience infringe on their rights to stop them?
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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