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Author Topic: Terrorism du jour in France  (Read 4508 times)

aikorob

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    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 11:26:25 AM »
    Curious, his weapon of choice...  Where are the calls to register or ban 'assault trucks?'
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    MTK20

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 12:15:29 PM »
    As someone on WTA pointed out a while back, Europeans can go from Zero to Goose-stepping in nothing flat.


    :whistle

    A horrible tragedy to be sure. Terrorists don't realise they just might get the war they have been asking for, do they?
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    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 12:55:44 PM »
    A horrible tragedy to be sure. Terrorists don't realise they just might get the war they have been asking for, do they?
    See, they want a war - a chance to kill the enemy and be martyred for their cause.

    Instead of a war, the French parliament should pass the following law:

    Realizing that all of the attackers so far have been muslim, and from the middle east: In the future, middle eastern muslims will be deported from France at a rate of 100x the casualties of future attacks.  Three Frenchmen are killed by a Tunisian muslim?  Three hundred Tunisian muslims should be deported from France.  This latest attack?  8,400 muslims would be sent back home.  Begin with the 'refugees.' Start with those from the attacker's country of origin if possible.  They leave first.  Then to any muslims granted asylum.  Then to those with residency, and finally to muslim French citizens of ME descent.  Why?  Because if it continues until it reaches the point of deporting citizens, clearly islam is not compatible with French society. 

    It won't get there, of course...  They will learn to behave themselves long before that.  Judaism and Christianity both had to learn to 'temper' some of the literal commandments and dogma to be compatible with modern society.  It is time Islam learned to do the same.

    To think that Charles Martel had to beat them back once before...  Now the French invite them in with open arms.  :facepalm  You have to make sure the dog is housetrained before giving it unsupervised free reign of the house.
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    aikorob

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 02:34:40 PM »
    Curious, his weapon of choice...  Where are the calls to register or ban 'assault trucks?'
    3 day waiting period on all diesel purchases
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 04:18:59 PM »
    This is going to require an effort of Herculean magnitude from moderate Muslims.  They must engage in the equivalent of the Protestant Reformation, for the problem is ideological and theological.   They must acknowledge that they are mistaken in the belief that later portions of the Koran supercede the earlier portions.  The later sections, the ones filled with domination and submission, hatred and jihad warfare against all who resist submission to Islam, are the problem.   They could reconcile the conflict in favor of acknowledging that the militant Islam later section was a product of the attack upon Mohammad by his former friends and conclude that those who are content to live in peace with Islam, as in the former sections, need not be conquered or forced to submit.

    Militant Islam, "radical" Islam, is actually academic Islam, or at least is taught that way by the most "learned' of Islamic clerics and experts.  It is according to Islam's own experts, "true Islam."  That must change.

    I spent some time in Lebanon last year, working primarily with Syrian refugees, mostly Muslim, and learned first hand from our local Christian missionary partners, some of which are converts from Islam, about how the Islamist interpretation of the Koran is actually the interpretation favored by academics that study it deeply and carefully.  They see world domination at the point of a gun barrel or detonator of a bomb as a mandate from Mohammad.  It is their duty, including a duty to lie to us about it.   

    Moderate Muslims can change this.  They are the only ones who can.  They and only they can bring Islam into the 21st century and out of the Dark Ages.

    Christianity made the change.  Judaism has made the change in its post-temple diasphora teachings.   Modern Israel, regardless of what one may say about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, provides far greater liberty and freedom than its Arab neighbors.  It is armed to the teeth and prepared to aggressively defend itself because it must.

    If the Muslim moderates do not now step up and engage in an Islamic Reformation, from the inside out, then we have no choice but engage in an aggressive campaign that will no doubt initially make things worse before they become better.  Now is their moment.  Will they take it?

    Unless they do, the "assault truck", "assault plane" and assault (fill in the blank) will continue until we wipe all of them from the face of the earth or make it so difficult for them that their impact will be miniscule.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    Kaso

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 05:20:43 PM »
    Unless they do, the "assault truck", "assault plane" and assault (fill in the blank) will continue until we wipe all of them from the face of the earth or make it so difficult for them that their impact will be miniscule.
    Either, or.  :coffee

    I am not opposed to them reforming themselves, as a group.  Neither am I really in favor of wiping every last one of them from the face of the earth.  Where I do favor that, it is as an alternative to what they are doing now.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 12:44:40 AM »
    This is going to require an effort of Herculean magnitude from moderate Muslims.  They must engage in the equivalent of the Protestant Reformation, for the problem is ideological and theological.   They must acknowledge that they are mistaken in the belief that later portions of the Koran supercede the earlier portions.  The later sections, the ones filled with domination and submission, hatred and jihad warfare against all who resist submission to Islam, are the problem.   They could reconcile the conflict in favor of acknowledging that the militant Islam later section was a product of the attack upon Mohammad by his former friends and conclude that those who are content to live in peace with Islam, as in the former sections, need not be conquered or forced to submit.

    Militant Islam, "radical" Islam, is actually academic Islam, or at least is taught that way by the most "learned' of Islamic clerics and experts.  It is according to Islam's own experts, "true Islam."  That must change.

    I spent some time in Lebanon last year, working primarily with Syrian refugees, mostly Muslim, and learned first hand from our local Christian missionary partners, some of which are converts from Islam, about how the Islamist interpretation of the Koran is actually the interpretation favored by academics that study it deeply and carefully.  They see world domination at the point of a gun barrel or detonator of a bomb as a mandate from Mohammad.  It is their duty, including a duty to lie to us about it.   

    Moderate Muslims can change this.  They are the only ones who can.  They and only they can bring Islam into the 21st century and out of the Dark Ages.

    Christianity made the change.  Judaism has made the change in its post-temple diasphora teachings.   Modern Israel, regardless of what one may say about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, provides far greater liberty and freedom than its Arab neighbors.  It is armed to the teeth and prepared to aggressively defend itself because it must.

    If the Muslim moderates do not now step up and engage in an Islamic Reformation, from the inside out, then we have no choice but engage in an aggressive campaign that will no doubt initially make things worse before they become better.  Now is their moment.  Will they take it?

    Unless they do, the "assault truck", "assault plane" and assault (fill in the blank) will continue until we wipe all of them from the face of the earth or make it so difficult for them that their impact will be miniscule.
    I agree.  Mostly.   The problem is that, unlike the Protestant Reformation, the adherents of jihad and its Siamese twin, sharia will happily kill any and all moderate muslims who oppose their reign of terror.  Unless and until you wipe every vestige of sharia law from your society you will have done, essentially, nothing to achieve your goal.  The muslims you seek to curb have committed themselves to the philosophy of convert or die.  Most of us have no intention of doing either - certainly not at the hands of some semi-literate scum with delusions of regaining some imaginary seventh century grandeur.   I don't doubt your characterization of it based on your experience but there is nothing "academic"  about jihad as as it is currently being practiced.

    There are people that you simply cannot reason with.  The gulf is too wide between what passes for their thought process and yours.  That doesn't mean you don't have to deal with them, it simply means that you must do so in the same manner that you deal with any other nuisance that cannot be reasoned with.

     If I discover termites in my house, I cannot reason with them so I must either destroy them or live with them until the house collapses from their depredations.  I choose the former. 

    If I encounter a rabid dog, I cannot reason with it and I cannot in good conscience allow it to continue roaming the area and threatening others.  I must take whatever action is necessary to destroy that animal immediately.  I don't hate the dog - on the contrary - I am, by any measure a dog lover but that cannot deter me from what I must do. 

    The aggressor sets the terms of any engagement.  In this case they have chosen total victory or death and they will surely have one or the other.  It is up to us to decide which option to grant them. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    MTK20

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 02:49:32 AM »
    I agree.  Mostly.   The problem is that, unlike the Protestant Reformation, the adherents of jihad and its Siamese twin, sharia will happily kill any and all moderate muslims who oppose their reign of terror.  Unless and until you wipe every vestige of sharia law from your society you will have done, essentially, nothing to achieve your goal.  The muslims you seek to curb have committed themselves to the philosophy of convert or die.  Most of us have no intention of doing either - certainly not at the hands of some semi-literate scum with delusions of regaining some imaginary seventh century grandeur.   I don't doubt your characterization of it based on your experience but there is nothing "academic"  about jihad as as it is currently being practiced.

    There are people that you simply cannot reason with.  The gulf is too wide between what passes for their thought process and yours.  That doesn't mean you don't have to deal with them, it simply means that you must do so in the same manner that you deal with any other nuisance that cannot be reasoned with.

     If I discover termites in my house, I cannot reason with them so I must either destroy them or live with them until the house collapses from their depredations.  I choose the former. 

    If I encounter a rabid dog, I cannot reason with it and I cannot in good conscience allow it to continue roaming the area and threatening others.  I must take whatever action is necessary to destroy that animal immediately.  I don't hate the dog - on the contrary - I am, by any measure a dog lover but that cannot deter me from what I must do. 

    The aggressor sets the terms of any engagement.  In this case they have chosen total victory or death and they will surely have one or the other.  It is up to us to decide which option to grant them.

    Well written, as always  :thumbup1.
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    kunkmiester

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 02:47:42 PM »
    He meant acedemic in its literal sense--when you study Islam and it's base texts, it is easier--easier than the Mark of Cain--to justify the extremist ideology.

    If moderate Islam is possible, moderate Muslims will have to kill for it.  It's what Christians had to do to get a more moderate religion, and with starting from a more extreme position, Muslims will have to do more.
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    aikorob

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    Grant

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 02:14:11 PM »
      I do have to wonder what/how each region/country "clicks" into radical/extremist interpretations VS moderate.     The same as how liberals are elected in the US?  Hardship? economically?

        I ask as you look at pictures of Egypt, Afghanistan,etc. in the 50's and 60's and it is VERY westernized in nature, and if there were hardline extremists, they were so small in number that they kept their traps shut.

       
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    JackCrow

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 04:57:22 PM »
    I think that the first step is to make the exercise of sharia law illegal within the borders of the USA and its territories.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 05:10:56 PM »
    There's Sharia law and there's Sharia law.

    You can have a whole legal system based on Sharia, including the definitions for crimes and prescribed penalties. That's places like Iran or Saudi Arabia and it's bad and it's never going to happen in the USA.

    You can also have privately operated Sharia courts, that will mediate civil disputes between parties that have mutually consented to have the Sharia court help them settle it. This is a common sort of thing. There are Talmudic courts for Jews that want to avail their services, and there's Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy for shameless idiots. You can't ban these without taking a massive crap all over the first amendment.
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    Grant

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 05:59:58 PM »
    There's Sharia law and there's Sharia law.

    You can have a whole legal system based on Sharia, including the definitions for crimes and prescribed penalties. That's places like Iran or Saudi Arabia and it's bad and it's never going to happen in the USA.

    You can also have privately operated Sharia courts, that will mediate civil disputes between parties that have mutually consented to have the Sharia court help them settle it. This is a common sort of thing. There are Talmudic courts for Jews that want to avail their services, and there's Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy for shameless idiots. You can't ban these without taking a massive crap all over the first amendment.

    Exactly, I have no problems with Sharia courts that both parties assent to.

      When these verdicts lead to punishment that we consider horrendous and inhumane according to our laws we step in and install OUR legal system upon them (still can't say justice system with a straight face though).
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #15 on: July 18, 2016, 06:43:55 PM »
    He meant acedemic in its literal sense--when you study Islam and it's base texts, it is easier--easier than the Mark of Cain--to justify the extremist ideology.

    If moderate Islam is possible, moderate Muslims will have to kill for it.  It's what Christians had to do to get a more moderate religion, and with starting from a more extreme position, Muslims will have to do more.

    Exactly what I meant.  That is the tragedy of it.  Unless there is a reformation of their theology from the inside out, the extremist ideology will continue to dominate Islam, regardless of the moderates.  The moderates may have to do this by force.  Bear in mind that the Protestant Reformation was messy.  It was open warfare - literally thousands died - to break away from the established Church at the time.  My apologies to any Roman Catholic friends, because today's Catholic church is such that the Protestant Reformation would not need to happen.  But Protestants, (Reformed), Catholics and the Anabaptists (now Baptists), all killed each others by the thousands.  People beheaded, burned at the stake.  We all came out the other side after a long time, with a desire to live in peace and all developed a fairly high degree of respect and tolerance.   More recent clashes between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland are a reminder of this.  Certainly the IRA was what we would call a terrorist organization.

    If moderate Muslims intent on "correcting" the supersessionist interpretation of later jihad and sharia law which is taught by "academics" as wiping out the earlier peaceful parts of the Koran, are unwilling to take up arms and die to bring about this change, they can make their religion and the world a better place.  If not, we will have to do it externally.  That will not be easy and will not be quick.   But we must protect and defend ourselves.  It is better to engage the enemy where they are as much as possible rather than continuing to wait for them to come to us.

    The key is the Moderate Muslims.  Will they step up?  Sadly, I fear they will not. 
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    MTK20

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #16 on: July 18, 2016, 06:47:50 PM »
    There's Sharia law and there's Sharia law.

    You can have a whole legal system based on Sharia, including the definitions for crimes and prescribed penalties. That's places like Iran or Saudi Arabia and it's bad and it's never going to happen in the USA.

    You can also have privately operated Sharia courts, that will mediate civil disputes between parties that have mutually consented to have the Sharia court help them settle it. This is a common sort of thing. There are Talmudic courts for Jews that want to avail their services, and there's Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy for shameless idiots. You can't ban these without taking a massive crap all over the first amendment.

    It is not my intention to be a wet blanket, but I do not see how even privately set up Sharia law courts could be set up for civil disputes and be constitutional. Judge Judy might be court for shameless idiots, but people do not get physically injured there. Being a college student who is currently taught about Islamic law, this is what I have so far:

    Quote
    Through Islamic law there are two books that give it it's power: the Qu'ran and the Sunnah.

    One of the teachings is that "Islamic law is valid whether recognised by the state or not".

    There are two types of crimes in Ilamic law, crimes against society and then Hudud crimes or crimes against god.

    Hudud crimes are those which are considered the most serious. One of the ways to break a Hudud law is through the "voluntary renunciation against Islam or its rule".

    As we know, the preferred punishment in Islamic law is corporal punishment and can even go as far as death.

    Unless they decide to tone it down from the literal text, I do not see how the above teachings could be followed and yet allowed by the constitution. And may I remind you that my direct quotes are taken from a collegiate textbook, from the Academic culture of "safe spaces, trigger warnings, and micro aggressions". If this is the "toned down" and "sugar coated" version of the text, then....  :scrutiny.
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    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #17 on: July 18, 2016, 06:51:54 PM »
    There's Sharia law and there's Sharia law.

    You can have a whole legal system based on Sharia, including the definitions for crimes and prescribed penalties. That's places like Iran or Saudi Arabia and it's bad and it's never going to happen in the USA.

    You can also have privately operated Sharia courts, that will mediate civil disputes between parties that have mutually consented to have the Sharia court help them settle it. This is a common sort of thing. There are Talmudic courts for Jews that want to avail their services, and there's Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy for shameless idiots. You can't ban these without taking a massive crap all over the first amendment.

    Yes, but true Sharia law is imposed without consent.  Such is totally antithetical to the United States Constitution.  One cannot accept responsibilities of United States citizenship including pledging loyalty to our Constitution and operate under any Sharia law that is anything beyond a purely voluntary dispute resolution process for civil disputes only.  To me, having a little Sharia law is like being a little pregnant.  Either you are or you are not

    "Is you is, or is you ain't my baby" sort of thing.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    JesseL

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #18 on: July 18, 2016, 07:19:10 PM »
    Clearly Sharia law can't be allowed to be applied to anyone who doesn't consent to it and it can't enforce punishments that are illegal under US law. I would think that that goes without saying.

    Whether Muslims can use civil Sharia courts and still respect the authority and supremacy of governmental courts while remaining good Muslims isn't my problem. If they break the law, they obviously don't get to hide behind Sharia.

    There is a large body of civil law (especially contract law) where Sharia can be applied (by mutual consent among parties) and in no way conflict with US law.
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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #19 on: July 18, 2016, 07:23:38 PM »
    Quote
    Through Islamic law there are two books that give it it's power: the Qu'ran and the Sunnah.

    One of the teachings is that "Islamic law is valid whether recognised by the state or not".

    There are two types of crimes in Ilamic law, crimes against society and then Hudud crimes or crimes against god.

    Hudud crimes are those which are considered the most serious. One of the ways to break a Hudud law is through the "voluntary renunciation against Islam or its rule".

    As we know, the preferred punishment in Islamic law is corporal punishment and can even go as far as death.

    Unless they decide to tone it down from the literal text, I do not see how the above teachings could be followed and yet allowed by the constitution. And may I remind you that my direct quotes are taken from a collegiate textbook, from the Academic culture of "safe spaces, trigger warnings, and micro aggressions". If this is the "toned down" and "sugar coated" version of the text, then....  :scrutiny.

    I'm not talking about crimes at all. Whether defined by US law or Sharia.

    Civil disputes are covered by Sharia too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_Law_of_Saudi_Arabia#Four_Sources_of_Sharia_Law
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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #20 on: July 19, 2016, 12:32:24 AM »
    The problem is the "supremacy clause" which establishes federal law as the highest authority.  In this day and age the idea of "gay marriage" and other "rights(?)" such as gender neutral restroom facilities, antithetical to even the most liberal interpretation of sharia, puts it in direct conflict with even civil interpretations.  There is certainly a gray area between minor "crimes" and the Hudud crimes when you add the complication of ambitious local prosecutors.   Any ideas how the halal bakeshop down the street will deal with a request for their services in a same sex wedding ceremony?  Think it won't happen?   Bet you didn't think it would happen to a mom and pop Christian bakeshop either.  For better or worse, we have an amendment to the constitution that requires equal protection ( or persecution ) under the law and also an amendment which prohibits any laws preventing the free exercise of one's religious beliefs.   

    If you think that situation doesn't require us to choose between federal law and sharia, you are naive at best.   :coffee
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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #21 on: July 19, 2016, 12:36:16 AM »
    Why would in the world would a gay couple sue a halal bakery in a Sharia court?
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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #22 on: July 19, 2016, 12:47:09 AM »
    The example you suggest wouldn't allow an actual lawsuit.  Under U.S. law that can only be accomplished through the civil or criminal court system of record.   The point is that you cannot operate a system of laws independent of our existing legal system without running afoul of it at some point because you cannot insulate the people who agree to be bound by those laws from the general population who does not agree to it.  Warren Jeffs and the FLDS are but one example of it.   
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #23 on: July 19, 2016, 08:36:01 AM »
    The example you suggest wouldn't allow an actual lawsuit.  Under U.S. law that can only be accomplished through the civil or criminal court system of record.   The point is that you cannot operate a system of laws independent of our existing legal system without running afoul of it at some point because you cannot insulate the people who agree to be bound by those laws from the general population who does not agree to it.  Warren Jeffs and the FLDS are but one example of it.   

    Actually it WOULD allow it...........

    The "Civil Sharia Law" Jesse speaks of is basically a civil meeting with an arbiter who decides what happens.    The same way a person who got injured at a company, may meet with the company and decide on whether to get the payment both sides can agree on or whether it will move to a legal court as a lawsuit. 
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    coelacanth

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    Re: Terrorism du jour in France
    « Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 03:31:49 PM »
    Dispute resolution,  binding arbitration, etc.  - all these are common in this country and tend to work very well.  Where you get into trouble with sharia is that it proscribes not just the crime but also the punishment to be meted out.  Even a cursory examination of how other societies implement sharia law will quickly give you the idea that it is just not compatible with the entire structure of western civilization.   It is not simply a religious conviction but a whole socio-economic system that is administered from the top down.   Not going to work here unless we completely give up on the ideas the country was founded upon. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

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