Target Shooting vs Fighting with a Firearm

[tire iron]

Target Shooting versus Fighting with a firearm

Hopefully, you the reader will be able to understand the principles that I am about to explain.  If you fail to understand, the problem is on my end, by failing to present this information to you in a way that is easily understandable.

This is actually a ‘primer’ that I have students read before we actually ‘start’ the training process.

So, here it is.

Most of us have been taught to shoot using ‘target’ shooting methods as opposed to ‘fighting’ shooting methods.  In reality, the two are as similar as stock car racing and driving to work.  The only REAL similarities are that the vehicles both have 4 tires, a steering wheel, an engine and seat belts.  However, the similarities pretty much end there.

With Stock Car racing, the tracks are of known length, width and condition.  The driver may go and walk the track if he desires.  His equipment is specialized, made specifically for driving on these ‘known’ tracks.  His competitors are of similar skill level, know the rules and abide by them (for the most part).

Target shooting is also very specialized.  The shots are made at known distances.  One is not under any serious time constraints.  The equipment is specialized, with ‘target triggers’, ‘target sights’, ‘target stocks’, ‘target barrels’, ‘shooting slings’, ‘shooting jackets’, etc. If one’s weapon malfunctions, an “alibi” is declared, allowing the competitor to re-shoot that portion of the course.  There are MANY rules that must be adhered to in the spirit of ‘sportsmanship’ and ‘fairness’.

However, if one tries to take these ‘target rifles’ and these techniques into the combat or fighting arena, one quickly discovers that this is the WRONG tool for the job.  (The target guns are unnecessarily heavy, the components can be fragile, the target slings useless, the shooting jacket too restrictive, the ‘rules’ can get you killed, blah blah blah)

In target shooting, there is NO movement.  All shots are fired to a target that is a known distance.  One studies the effect of wind by range flags and observing the mirage effect.

The target stance is characterized by having the body perpendicular to the target.  The feet are shoulder width apart and pointing in the same direction as the upper body (at 90 degrees to the target), the body is totally relaxed, the breathing controlled and slow, the firing arm/elbow stuck out at 90 degrees to create a nice pocket for the stock, the support hand forms a cradle for the front of the weapon, the rearward pull of the weapon into the shoulder is accomplished with the middle, fourth and fifth fingers of the firing hand.  For this stance, one needs the longer length of pull as characterized by the M16-A2 stock.  (Length of pull is the distance from the trigger to the rear of the butt stock.  With the ‘A2 – and most ‘target rifles’ this distance is 13.5”)  Look at the next picture for an example of a ‘Target Stance’.
  
  

Fighting or combat is altogether different.  Maneuver is the key to success.  Shoot.  Maneuver.  Communicate.  Also shootmaneuvercommunicate (at the same time).  The ‘targets’ shoot back.  There really are no rules.  “Alibi’s” do not exist.  It is “OK” to shoot someone while they are in the middle of mag change and no one will prosecute you for fighting “unfair”.  One couldn’t care less about wind and drift.  One is not concerned with getting an absolutely perfect sight picture, coupled with flawless sight alignment, followed up with stellar trigger control.  One only wants to get hits on target!  Center of mass is preferable, but ANY hit is GREAT!  Follow up with more hits if necessary.

The fighting stance and the target stance have nothing in common.  First off, while in the ‘fighting stance’ the upper body is NO MORE than 45 degrees to the target, with less being better.  How many of us when we run or move quickly do so with our upper torso at 45 to 90 degrees???  Nobody!  If combat shooting is not about moving, then your idea of combat is severely mistaken.  So, one should ideally have one’s upper torso facing the threat allowing one to move (run) and still keep the weapon trained on the threat.

The elbows should be ‘down’; BOTH hands are gripping the weapon (not a death grip – but a ‘controlled grip’ like when gripping a hammer.) and the upper body in a relaxed but alert state.  (This allows for ‘fluid movement’ – movement that is SMOOTH – not jerky.)

Remember in "target shooting" the support hand does not ‘grip’ the weapon, but merely cradles it.  BUT, we are talking about a fighting instrument here, NOT a target piece, and under those conditions, we GRIP the fore-end/vert grip/whatever to help us drive the gun.

It really doesn’t matter what the feet are doing as one should not be standing still anyway.  One should be MANEUVERING.

The legs are ‘flexed’ or slightly bent, so as to allow one to move quickly, and to act as ‘shock absorbers’ while moving.  If you find you are ‘skipping’, ‘hopping’ or ‘crabbing’ with your legs instead of walking or running naturally, then your upper body is angled too far away from the target.  Square your shoulders to the target more (so your shoulders are more parallel with the target) until your ‘foot work’ is more natural and straight.  You want to walk or run as you would if you did not have a weapon in your hands, or as close to it as possible.

The upper torso is also leaning forward at the bottom of the rib cage (not the hips) to afford easy movement, and to somewhat negate the recoil forces of the weapon as it discharges.

A shorter length of pull with regards to the butt stock make it much easier to assume and keep the fighting position.  The collapsible stock on the CAR-15/M4 series all the way closed (9.7” LOP) or open to the first stop (10.6” LOP) seem to work best for most people.

The butt stock it placed more in the collarbone area than out on the shoulder.  This allows one to see the red dot/front sight without have to ‘kant’ one’s head over and down to see the sight(s).  In other words, keep your head erect, without any weird head movements.
  
  
  

With handguns, the stance is the same, but one is merely cradling the weapon in two hands.  The ‘Weaver’ crowd will have a little more difficult time utilizing movement because of the ‘angled’ or ‘bladed’ shoulders, which is part of the Weaver method.  Most people find it ‘un-natural’ to walk straight ahead when one’s shoulders are pointed in another direction.  It just takes some extra practice.  The modern freestyle (some would call it the ‘isosceles’ stance – but it really isn’t that either – as there is no ‘isometric’ pushing together, blah blah.) is the ‘ticket’, as the shoulders are already pointed straight ahead.  The weapon is supported out in space with both hands and the arms are semi-relaxed.  (Some folks have their arms at full extension, and some don’t.  Whatever feels the best to the shooter and gives them the best hits is what counts.)
Here is the Weaver (actually the Chapman Modified Weaver, as the ‘gunhand’ elbow is straight.  The Weaver stance has the ‘gunhand’ elbow slightly bent – but the principle is the same – a ‘push/pull effect’):
  


continued next..

Here is the ‘Iso’:
 
 

With both the short (handgun) and long (rifle/carbine/smg/shotgun) guns one actually ‘drives’ or ‘flies’ the weapon on target.  This may sound juvenile – but it works.  Pretend that the weapon actually ‘flies’ and you are just directing the flight.  You are not ‘muscling’ the weapon around, but just doing ‘course corrections’.  The weapon then moves SMOOTHLY, and the front sight/red dot just ‘finds’ the spot that your master eye has recognized as a threat.  During firing, let the weapon recoil on its own, and it will settle down right back on target MUCH faster than if one were trying to ‘control’ the recoil.

Try it yourself.  Shoot at a target and TRY to ‘control the recoil’.  Notice even IF the front sight comes back to where it should, and how long it takes.  Then relax your hold on the piece, and let the weapon recoil on its own.  The front sight will magically drop right back on target much faster.

So:
1.   Face the threat in a semi-aggressive forward facing stance.
2.   Elbows down (when using a long) or arms extended (not necessarily all the way out and locked, my arms are slightly bent) and semi-relaxed if using a short.
3.   Head straight up (no leaning over to the right or left)
4.   Fly the gun.

Practice by walking around the house with a Styrofoam cup full of hot (not scalding) water.  Try out different methods of walking (shorter steps, longer steps, heel to toe, toe to heel, arms locked out, arms slightly flexed, etc.)  This will show any shortcoming quickly as the spilt hot water will makes errors known.  Then try your newfound stance with your DRY weapon.  Then after some dry time, try it ‘live’ at your next range session.  Try and video yourself so you can critique your movements, or have a buddy watch you and tell you what you are doing wrong.  (Then switch – so there is ‘pay backs’ – then you can keep your friendship intact!)

Remember, only PERFECT practice makes PERFECT.

cheers

tire iron

[FMJ]

So someone pulled this out of their butt?

And just to be 100% clear, Chapman is like a 50% Iso and 50% Weaver?

When I first started shooting pistols when I was in 10th grade, I assumed the iso--cus that's what I read about back then.  These days, I find my self doing what I guess is the Chapman...

[ZeroTA]

Another great post, Tire Iron. Thanks.

[tire iron]

So someone pulled this out of their butt?

And just to be 100% clear, Chapman is like a 50% Iso and 50% Weaver?

When I first started shooting pistols when I was in 10th grade, I assumed the iso--cus that's what I read about back then.  These days, I find my self doing what I guess is the Chapman...

No - I just pulled it out of "My Documents". 

Not really clear on the percentages of the whole Chapman/Weaver thing - I call all those iterations the "pushme-pullyou" stance.




ZTA,

Thanks for the kind words and for the post.


cheers

tire iron

[FMJ]

No - I just pulled it out of "My Documents

No, I meant to ask about the whole isometric tensions spiel...  I've heard that around a lot.



Great write up, TI.  I definitely learned from it.  For the time being, I am now officially more interested in learning combat shooting; but I love shooting trap when it comes to sport.  Not gonna lie.

[tire iron]

Yeah - Jack Weaver pulled it out of his rear - and Jeff Cooper made it famous.

Here is the details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_stance

Thanks for the kind words - I am glad you learned something from it.

cheers

tire iron

[FMJ]

Thanks for the kind words - I am glad you learned something from it.

Because I could only learn so much from the Boy Scout Rifle Shooting merit badge.  I took it when I was eleven, and that was an excellent starting point.  But compared to all the stuff I know now (but need to practice) it is chump-change.

[tire iron]

Good attitude.

Remember everyone that knows a lot about a certain subject started out knowing nothing.  The difference between them and those that still know nothing is they worked at gaining knowledge one bit at a time.

So keep at it - you'll get there.

cheers

tire iron

[Khorne]

What's your opinion of the placement of your non-firing hand while in the fighting stance in regards to placing the hand further up instead of on the magazine well?

[tire iron]

What's your opinion of the placement of your non-firing hand while in the fighting stance in regards to placing the hand further up instead of on the magazine well?

I have (since I took this pictures) started placing my hand further out on the stock to the point to where my support arm is nearly straight.

Kind of a funny learning cycle.  Started out "target shooting" the USMC way.  KD range and all that horse pucky.  Then started to learn how to "fight with a firearm" - but back then it was all Weaver and "elbows out".  Then in the '90's it started to be elbows down with VFG's - as that is a LOT better than "cradling the forearm" (like a target shooter).  Then it was grab the mag well.  Then I started experimenting with shot timers - and I found that holding the mag well was slower than using a VFG.  Time went on and I started experimenting with taking the VFG further out on the handguard - then just using the VFG as a 'stop' - now I will probably get the Magpul AFG.

It been a journey......

cheers

tire iron

[Khorne]

Heck, the Army taught me one way, then I learned another, then I took some classes from MadOgre and learned the right way, so I feel your pain.  Tried lots of different things.  Some I thought were "sure things" until I learned a better way. 

[bmitchell]

So I put 300 rounds through my AR this weekend (half yesterday and half today) doing some running and gunning.

A few thoughts:
1. I was skeptical about shortening the LOP at first.  Wow, makes a HUGE difference.  I've got my carbine stock on the third notch (or second from closed) now and it will probably stay there.  That works great for me.  Play around with it until it rides right.

2. Lots of fun to ride the rifle once it is set up right.  Let the motion of the rifle bring it back on target.  Very quick.

3. I need more mags.  Right now I've got six PMags.  Not nearly enough.  Way too easy to go through 5 and not even realize it.  I'm thinking I might pick up some C-Products from Copes for $8 per.

4. I need a better way to carry them.  The web-belt mounted German drop pouch just isn't cutting it.  Not enough space for more than five mags and doesn't keep them situated very well.

5. The Magpul BAD lever.  Way awesome.  Out with the old, in with the new, swipe, and ready to go.  So much easier and faster.

6. I need to slow down on the trigger some.  Almost burned myself on the front sight/gas block, took the whole trip home to cool down.

7. I need to run more in general.  I am out of shape and it shows.

8. Howard Leights are worth the cost.

9. I need to head down to Dodds Training.  I'd hit up Crusader if it wasn't across the country, but Dodds offers carbine, shotgun, and pistol and is less than an hour away.  Going to the plinking pit alone (or especially with friends) is just not cutting it.  I don't get better without feedback or technique correction, and when my friends go I'm too busy playing range monitor to shoot much.

Ben

[tire iron]

GREAT JOB bmitchell!!!

Thanks for not taking my word as gospel!  Testing it out for yourself is the ONLY way to know if it "works" or not for you.

Taking training courses is a GREAT way to learn new nuggets of info to help you get better - and having a trained eye give you a few pointers is well worth the price for admission.

Thanks for the post!

cheers

tire iron

[bmitchell]

Thanks TI.  At this point I need to know what to practice.  I know keeping my weapon fed, getting cover, and getting hits are what matter but the best ways of doing so are things I need to learn.

Ben

[Khorne]

It's one of those things you have to do to learn.  Having been in the Army in learned how to run an M4.  Then I bought an AK and by taking it through George's training classes, I learned so much about what I can and can't do with it.  Some things I never would have suspected. 

[bmitchell]

That's kind of what I mean - I don't know what I don't know, if that makes sense.

Ben

[Grant]

  Lotta good stuff Tire Iron 

  One thing I noticed that was odd was the target shooting stance.    About the only way I've seen people hold a rifle (Any) is left hand on the foregrip.    I usually grip the front of the magwell if I'm offhand, mid-handguard if I'm from any type of rest to support elbows.

  Anyway: I've noticed a few things as well: My generation (under 25) generally have way differant shooting positions/styles,etc. than our immediate parents.   

     For example: AR15 flat top, I'm holding it way higher than dad, an with only a 3/4" riser under the scope, whereas he holds it alot lower, and with a 3/4" riser and high scope rings.     Comparing it to your post, My stance is a more "Combat grip", or like the second rifle photo.   

[FMJ]

I'd like to nominate this thread for a sticky.  I actually haven't looked at guns and their selection the same after I initially read this.

[Avenger29]

The farther you can get your support hand out on a longgun, the better IMHO. Like Tireiron said, let the gun recoil on it's own and drive it on the target. The latest trend is towards a Magpul AFG on the forend. You don't have to have an AFG, of course, but for many people, it works well if you have the ability to mount it far enough out there.

[Storyteller]

 As a rookie cop in the '70's, carrying a S&W .38, we were still using the "safety" holsterand learning how to use our firearms. The Iso was the only thing being taught and allowed. After going to some Shoots( on my own time and dime) with the original SWPL and seeing the "Weaver" I quickly addapted it and worked many hard hours to get it right. At the next department qualification, the whistle blew, I dropped into my "Weaver" and promptly aced the stage. Next thing I know I have two instructors/rso's standing over my shoulders trying to tell me why it was no good. So I promptly aced the next stage. They left me alone. I qualified for the "Chiefs 10" for the next 9 years.That was a long time ago but I stil fall right into place.The gun recoils up, when it comes down you are on target and  the sights are still lined up at the end of the move. Nice piece of writing TI. As always.