Germans tired of footing the EU'ss bills

[Bo Smith]

Maybe this will mean the end of regional government in Europe. We can only hope.


http://www.slate.com/id/2247257//temp%20override%20for%20the%20hivedocument.getElementById%28%22fbtoolanc%22%29.href%20=%20%22http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=%22%20%20%20window.location%20%20%20%27

Germany Is Tired of Paying Europe's BillsIf Germans feel less guilty about the war, they won't make sacrifices to help feckless Greeks.
By Anne ApplebaumPosted Monday, March 8, 2010, at 8:00 PM ET

Also in Slate, Christopher Beam explains what would happen if Greece went bankrupt.

"Sell your islands, you bankrupt Greeks. And sell the Acropolis too!"—headline, Bild newspaper, March 4, 2010

Sometimes they cut to the essence of the story, those tabloid headline-writers, even when they haven't got the quotation exactly right. What the German politician being quoted in the Bild article cited above actually said was, "A bankrupt party must use everything he has to make money and serve his creditors. … Greece owns buildings, companies and several uninhabited islands, which can now be used to repay debt."

What he meant, though, was more accurately reflected in that Bild headline: The Germans are fed up with paying Europe's bills. They don't want to bail out the feckless Greeks with their flagrantly inaccurate official statistics; they resent being Europe's banker of last resort; they object to the universal demand that they plug the vast holes in the Greek budget deficit in the name of "European unity"; and for the first time in a long time they are saying it out loud. Not only are tabloids demanding the sale of the Acropolis, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Germany's deeply serious paper of record, has pointed out that while the Greeks are out protesting the raising of the pension age from 61 to 63, Germany recently raised its pension age from 65 to 67: "Does that mean that the Germans should in future extend the working age from 67 to 69, so that Greeks can enjoy their retirement?'

With an unerringly poor sense of timing, the Greeks have, in response, chosen precisely this moment to flaunt their own set of resentments. One Greek minister complained to the BBC that the Nazis "took away the Greek gold that was in the Bank of Greece, they took away the Greek money and they never gave it back." The mayor of Athens has demanded 70 billion euros for the ruins the Nazis left behind after the war. The Greek consumer organization, not exactly thankful for the German bailout or Europe's demands for Greek budget cuts, has called for a boycott of German products. Officially, the Germans have described these comments as "not helpful." Unofficially, the German press is foaming at the mouth (see above), for once reflecting accurately the views of both German politicians and German voters.

More curious is the question of why this is happening at this particular moment: After all, the Germans have been paying for European unity—not just the currency but the farming subsidies, the assistance to poorer regions, the highways in Spain and Ireland—for decades without ever complaining much. In Warsaw, one sees children's playgrounds proudly bearing signs declaring that they have been "built with European money," most of which presumably comes from German taxpayers. So why are those German taxpayers suddenly complaining about the Greeks?

The obvious answer is to do with that poor timing: Germany is still effectively in recession; unemployment is relatively high; and the new ruling coalition has sworn to curtail spending. That means that for the first time in a long time, Germans are feeling a direct pinch on their incomes, on their pensions, and on state institutions, including schools. If they don't feel like bailing out other people at this particular moment in the economic cycle—particularly people with an earlier retirement age—no one can blame them.

The less obvious answer is related to those comments about Nazis. The driving force behind the creation of the European Union, back in the 1950s, was Germany's guilt about the war. Although other countries had different motives, the whole point of European economic and political unity, from the German point of view, was to drown the German nation and its singular history into something larger and more palatable.

Along the way, Europe also acquired other reasons for its existence: The euro—the European currency that has been rendered wobbly by the Greek national debt—was created to help the single European market compete with the United States. But political feelings run deeper than economic needs, and without that fundamental German urge to sacrifice national sovereignty, the whole thing will fall apart.

Which is why this wave of German indignation over the Greek bailout is so important. After all, Germany is now run by a generation with no personal memories of the war. Germany's historical debate is now focused on the fate of Germans who suffered from wartime bombing and postwar deportation, not with the fate of Germany's victims—in Greece or anywhere else. Sooner or later, the Germans will collectively decide that enough sacrifices have been made and that the debt to Europe has been paid. Thanks to the ungrateful Greeks with their island villas and large pensions, that day may arrive more quickly that we thought it would.

[Harm]

No one should be made to unwillingly shoulder anothers debt.  Especially when that individual is currently forced to go without.  Good luck Germany, because if they try and leave the EU it's going to get nasty.

[stephendutton]

Its not just Germany paying the bills. The UK pays too, in fact our membership fees recently rose thanks to Tony Blair giving up a rebate worth billions every year. He did this becasue the French agreed to reform of the Common Agricultural Policy (whereby everyone else pays for French farmers who spend more time on strike than producing food that is too expensive to be competitive without the protected French market). The reform never happened, but our bill has still gone up.
There is no chance of Germany leaving the EUSSR, their leaders are just as fanatical about membership as the UK's politcal cartel is.

[JD]

 Thanks for posting that Bo. I'm not surprised to read this though. When I went on my little expedition in Europe the joint was just about to switch over to the Euro. In every country I blacked out in visited, most Europeans I spoke with had bad feelings about the whole deal and felt the "E.U." was somewhat forced upon them. In my opinion, the formation of the E.U. was not exactly the best of ideas.
 Some good intentions by a few in it's creation? Yeah, I guess. Hey wait, what was it about a certain road leading to a warm clime being paved with good intentions? 

[Bo Smith]

I find it appalling that the Greeks are asking for WWII reparations. Germany surrendered. The communists took half of their country. They got over it and found a way to prosper. The Greeks should, too. Having a productive state support a slothful one with dole is the same old same old welfare state, only multinational, instead of local. It reveals the breadth of vision in how far our "elected leaders" wish to control us, across an entire continent, and perhaps across the whole globe.

I've heard stories time and again regarding European's rejection of the EU, and the oligarch's ratification of the treaties regardless. I find that disheartening, particularly with the ever-louder rumblings of a coming North American union. I, for one, am increasingly vigilant (and angry) about such an enterprise.

My thoughts and prayers go out to people of Europe that seek to be rid of the folly that is the EU. I don't think that there is anything I can do about it, but you have my support. 

[Khorne]

The problem with the EU, besides socialism, is the fact the different nations still retain their identity, yet they're supposed to sacrifice for other countries that may not like them.  They're trying to retain identities but pretending they don't exist.  Not a good combination and it could build up resentment.  On a good note, maybe they'll see the benefits of capitilism and free market......yeah right.

[JesseL]

The problem with the EU, besides socialism, is the fact the different nations still retain their identity, yet they're supposed to sacrifice for other countries that may not like them.  They're trying to retain identities but pretending they don't exist.  Not a good combination and it could build up resentment.

Sounds like a more extreme version of what we face in the US, with state's rights stacked against federalism. At least we have a common language, heritage, and not too many past wars between us.

The EU needs a few wars against a common enemy and at least about 75 years of being united before I'll be convinced that it's a stable entity.

[Feud]

Sounds like a more extreme version of what we face in the US, with state's rights stacked against federalism. At least we have a common language, heritage, and not too many past wars between us.

The EU needs a few wars against a common enemy and at least about 75 years of being united before I'll be convinced that it's a stable entity.

The EU is a lot like the US back in the Articles of the Confederacy days, of course there are language and ethno-cultural differences but on a political organizational level the EU is basically an evolving confederacy.

My guess is that if Europe has peace long enough it'll eventually adopt a more centralized system, maybe even within the next decade or two, where European States begin to take a role more akin to how our States function (heck, they might even get to have their own civil war over the matter like we did).

[Splodge Of Doom]

Perhaps one of the biggest problems of the EU is the interference - micro managing of everything.  It arises from the fact that the EU follows the Napoleonic model of law - If the law doesn't specifically say you can, it's illegal.

This is a system requiring massive bureaucracy, and it is not only inefficient, in the long term I reckon it's unworkable.

[stephendutton]

Sounds like a more extreme version of what we face in the US, with state's rights stacked against federalism. At least we have a common language, heritage, and not too many past wars between us.

The EU needs a few wars against a common enemy and at least about 75 years of being united before I'll be convinced that it's a stable entity.

You're not far off with the states vs federalism, but we have the situation where national governments are actively surrendering their sovereignty to a central authority regardless of the wishes of their citizens rather than trying to protect their own legislative rights against an ever expanding government.
Government of the state, by the state and for the state.

[stephendutton]

Perhaps one of the biggest problems of the EU is the interference - micro managing of everything.  It arises from the fact that the EU follows the Napoleonic model of law - If the law doesn't specifically say you can, it's illegal.

This is a system requiring massive bureaucracy, and it is not only inefficient, in the long term I reckon it's unworkable.

Micro managing is a big problem for sure, but the overall level of arrogance and corruption are worse.
Take the case of Marta Andreasen. She worked for the EUSSR and became concerned about the potential for fraud within it. She took her concerns to her superiors who did nothing until she went public, when they sacked her for 'failure to show sufficient loyalty and respect'.
Her wikipedia entry indicates that only 5% of EUSSR expenditure can be properly accounted for.

[Splodge Of Doom]

Yeah...  Not shocked, sadly.

I really, really hope the US makes it easier to emigrate (immigrate, from the perspective of most of the peeps here) legally in the next couple of years.  I really do wish to be shot of this place.

[Penguin]

I've heard stories time and again regarding European's rejection of the EU, and the oligarch's ratification of the treaties regardless. I find that disheartening, particularly with the ever-louder rumblings of a coming North American union. I, for one, am increasingly vigilant (and angry) about such an enterprise.

That has been my impression as well. I hope we don't end up in the same boat. Sadly though in many ways we seem to be following europe.

What I haven't understood in this whole mess is why does every one expect Germany to bail greace out? I don't get that. There are lots of countries in the EU one of it supposed streangths. So why it the whole bad being droped in germany's lap? I could understand if they were asking the EU for a bail out or if that is what everyone was expecting but, no it all seems to be lumped on Germany. I would be pissed if I was the germans too.

Personally though I don't think any one should bail the greeks out any more than we have been bailing eveyone out here in the US. I think all it will teach people is they can continue to screw around and when the buck stops, no worries just leach off of every one else who has been hard working. In turn the hard workers begin to wonder why am I working my but off when if I screw around it won't matter some one will bail me out. Then nobody works and the whole thing falls apart.

[stephendutton]

That has been my impression as well. I hope we don't end up in the same boat. Sadly though in many ways we seem to be following europe.

What I haven't understood in this whole mess is why does every one expect Germany to bail greace out? I don't get that. There are lots of countries in the EU one of it supposed streangths. So why it the whole bad being droped in germany's lap? I could understand if they were asking the EU for a bail out or if that is what everyone was expecting but, no it all seems to be lumped on Germany. I would be pissed if I was the germans too.

Personally though I don't think any one should bail the greeks out any more than we have been bailing eveyone out here in the US. I think all it will teach people is they can continue to screw around and when the buck stops, no worries just leach off of every one else who has been hard working. In turn the hard workers begin to wonder why am I working my but off when if I screw around it won't matter some one will bail me out. Then nobody works and the whole thing falls apart.

The bail out is because Greece cannot adjust interest rates to help its economy because it is part of the Euro. Either they get bailed out, setting the precedent that if you mess up your economy the EUSSR will come to your rescue, or they leave the Euro. Leaving the Euro would demonstrate that the single currency does not work as well as the EUSSR says it does, and nothing must ever be allowed to contradict them. Especially if they are wrong.
The major part of the bill will go to Germany purely because the EUSSR's funding is designed that way, whether the UK, which is not part of the Euro, will have to pay also remains to be seen.
There is however one hitch with all this. Existing EUSSR rules don't allow for such a bailout, so a new treaty would be needed. After Lisbon was passed we were assured that there would be no more treaties for a decade or more, and it is unlikely that even the UK's pro EUSSR cartel would pass another one so soon, especially to help out the single currency. So the other choice would be for the EUSSR itself to use powers which are apparently contained within the Lisbon Treaty that make it self ammending, and just change the rules however they want.
This of course assumes that they don't just ignore their own rules, as they have done before.

[Penguin]

The bail out is because Greece cannot adjust interest rates to help its economy because it is part of the Euro. Either they get bailed out, setting the precedent that if you mess up your economy the EUSSR will come to your rescue, or they leave the Euro. Leaving the Euro would demonstrate that the single currency does not work as well as the EUSSR says it does, and nothing must ever be allowed to contradict them. Especially if they are wrong.
The major part of the bill will go to Germany purely because the EUSSR's funding is designed that way, whether the UK, which is not part of the Euro, will have to pay also remains to be seen.
There is however one hitch with all this. Existing EUSSR rules don't allow for such a bailout, so a new treaty would be needed. After Lisbon was passed we were assured that there would be no more treaties for a decade or more, and it is unlikely that even the UK's pro EUSSR cartel would pass another one so soon, especially to help out the single currency. So the other choice would be for the EUSSR itself to use powers which are apparently contained within the Lisbon Treaty that make it self ammending, and just change the rules however they want.
This of course assumes that they don't just ignore their own rules, as they have done before.

Thanks for the insight.

[FMJ]

Here is more on the situation:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100322/ts_afp/eueurozonefinanceeconomygreece;_ylt=AhHOp6aOBw0JVmirgdE89P.tQLN_;_ylu=X3oDMTNrNjAwbDhxBGFzc2V0A2FmcC8yMDEwMDMyMi9ldWV1cm96b25lZmluYW5jZWVjb25vbXlncmVlY2UEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM2BHBvcwM2BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDZ2VybWFueWZpZ2h0