Negligent Discharge (pics and video)

[MarshallDodge]

But now the aftermath has to be dealt with.  You see I've got a long standing rule that I don't shoot with people who violate the rules of safety, and those reckless enough to have an ND/AD, but those are acquaintances, people whom I could care less if I don't see again (ok and a brother in law but...)

My younger brother (not Jared) and I talked this afternoon and feel the best course of action to happen before EITHER of us will go shooting with Jared again, is he must complete a firearms safety course or a hunter safety course AND must take a shooting class WITH HIS AK, my first suggestion was with Crusader so I can speak with his instructor post class and determine safety/skill.  Any other recommendations would be considered, although for the sake of record I'd prefer to recieve them via PM. 

But he must complete all of this before he can rejoin what for us, is a normal family activity. 

As an outsider looking in, this sounds a little harsh.

I think he has already learned his lesson.  If it were me, and it would be a tough thing to do if I were in your shoes, I would get him "back on the bike" as soon as possible.  Even though he did something stupid, he needs to gain some confidence in his shooting abilities and needs the support of you guys to do it.

Good suggestion Stephen, somebody buy him a flag for that AK while you are at it.  One of the rules I stress when I am working with newer shooters,  the action is always open when they are off the line.  I would stress this with Jared until you feel confident that he has got it.

[akodo]

I've been on the receiving end of an ND...a 410 shotgun.

The firing line was a wooden fence, targets on one side shooters on the other.  We would stop shooting and climb the fence to mess with targets.  A person with a single shot 410 was attempting to lower the hammer on a chamber that had a shell in it, and the hammer slipped.  It fired and hit the ground inches from my feet.  Both gravel and pellets rebounded up into my feet  (I had pellets embedded into the thick uppers of my workboots otherwise I'd have been bleeding. 

It hurt like hell. I screamed and dropped to the ground then jumped up and assessed myself for wounds.

It was my brother who made the mistake.  I am glad it was a near miss, a 410 at 7 yards out will still ruin your day and possibly your life if it hits you.  I am glad it was a near miss for my own health, but I am also glad that it was a near miss, because I would not wish the lodestone of having accidentally killed/maimed anyone, especially the lodestone of having accidentally killed/maimed your own brother on a total stranger.  I'd sure as hell not want that hanging around by brother's neck.

Just something to think about, but the person who is on the receiving end of the near miss probably gets off emotionally lighter than the guy who fired the gun.

[akodo]

But there was a place that was generally agreed upon to discharge the weapons, right?  If a gun isn't at that point it shouldn't be loaded.

I'm not being overcritical.  I've been in these situations before.  Situations that are easily preventable.

Honestly, an unloaded gun is a stick.  We need to be able to handle LOADED guns safely.

Saying the gun should not have been loaded is a cop-out.  Yes, situations like that are easily preventable, but the key isn't in being more sure the guns are unloaded when off the firing line. 

[Bo Smith]

Honestly, an unloaded gun is a stick.  We need to be able to handle LOADED guns safely.

Saying the gun should not have been loaded is a cop-out.  Yes, situations like that are easily preventable, but the key isn't in being more sure the guns are unloaded when off the firing line. 

Agreed. Every fighting class I've attended has run a hot range. I've yet to see a negligent discharge at any of them. I think it's when we get caught up in cold ranges and the NRA's "keep all weapons unloaded until ready to fire" that we run into complacency. I much prefer "All guns are always loaded", because they really are.

On topic- T, you seem to be a little bit of a s___ magnet. I'd lay low for a while  .

[chiwar7178]

On topic- T, you seem to be a little bit of a s___ magnet. I'd lay low for a while  .

I think he means one of these: 

[Thernlund]

There were two dozen or so weapons of various calibers and configurations on my tailgate.  Generally speaking, they were all unloaded while sitting there.  Mags were loaded up at the tailgate and weapons loaded while walking to the make-shift firing line.  The atmosphere was casual and everyone was expected to maintain safe weapon-handling procedures.  I think we all agree that in the company of our group that day, this was a reasonable expectation.  We were all experienced handlers of firearms.

This is not to say we were complacent.  Not at all.  Range cold calls and safe muzzle directions were carefully observed.  We all regularly would make others aware of our positions when approaching an individual from a blind spot, and the muzzles of firearms being handled were always in a safe direction.  You can watch any of my YouTube videos and see that safe weapon handling procedures are always observed during these shooting trips. 

For the record, I have no problem with the fact that his rifle was loaded while laying on the tailgate.  I personally placed my AR in the bed of the truck on its case while loaded.  The weapon was always on SAFE and when retrieving it my hand didn't find the grip, much less my finger the trigger.  Where the problem comes in, to my mind, is that he either...

a)  Placed his finger on the trigger while retrieving the weapon; or...

b)  He pulled the trigger on purpose WITHOUT first pointing the rifle in a safe direction.

His statement immediately following the incident hints at B.  The wording of his exclamation was strange to me.  But he isn't saying now, and I don't blame him.  All things considered in retrospect, I think he got the worst of end of the whole ordeal.  He looked like he was going to be sick for pretty much the rest of the afternoon.  He didn't even eat much.  I ate like a horse. 

Now we shouldn't beat up on Jared too much.  I'm 100% positive he's learned a lesson he'll never forget and that no class can or will ever teach him.  As I said, right now I think I'd rather be me than him.  I'm fine, none the worse for wear.  No nightmares or anything (I dreamt about an Irish bar fight last night, which actually isn't all that unusual for me).  The truck has what is, in reality, superficial damage.  Patch a couple (few?) small holes, paint, replace the seat, a new dash top panel, and a windshield.

This could have been infinitely worse on all fronts.

***

The truth of the matter is that safe weapons handling cannot be adequately shoehorned into just four rules.  The Four Rules are a solid foundation to be sure, but a blind material devotion to The Four Rules and the mindset that they are the end-all-be-all will in itself result in complacency.  The GOLDEN rule is common sense, vigilance, and respect for the weapon.

I have no ill feelings towards Jared.  I'm sure he's terrified of me right now, likely even more so of his brother.  But for my part, I would go shooting with him again, taking the opportunity to educate him.

Harm:  If you want to set that up, once the truck is back from the shop we can hit the range again.  Maybe next month we'll do the Table Mesa trip we were talking about.  For my part, Jared is welcomed to attend.  He should have the expectation though that while he will be treated respectfully, he will also be treated as a newbie.


-T.

[GeorgeHill]

The mark of a Man isn't that he made a mistake... but how he handles the mistake after it was made.

[coyotesfan97]

I was standing by the trunk of my car talking with a guy who was shooting next to us and was drooling over my AUG when I heard the ND.  Both me and the guy I was talking to basically said WTF.  It didn't sound right which I realize now was the sound of a rifle discharge inside PU bed. 

The silence after an ND is strange.  I was present at one where a guy had an ND into a bullet trap at a loading bench with 50-60 people standing around talking loudly and I could hear the brass bouncing on the sidewalk as it had gone that quiet. 

Jared was already pale and I think T was still trying to figure out what was going on.  I give T kudos.  He unloaded the rifle and went for a little walk to decompress.  I could tell he was pretty mad but never said a cross word at the time.  I told him I didn't think I could have managed that.

Anyways the guy I was talking to looked at the truck and traced where the round went.  Then he started talking about the police stopping T on the way home.  He walked back to his truck and told his buddy "Lets get out of here!"  They sped out of the desert pretty quick.

Basically unloading procedure wasn't followed.  Magazine out, finger off the trigger, and working parts back to check the chamber.  I didn't see it happen so I can't add much more than that.

Jared was very quiet and pale at lunch.  He obviously did not have an appetite.  I think he has learned a very valuable lesson about firearm safety.  If he plans to continue shooting he should get back on the horse soon.

T had a guardian angel on his shoulder yesterday.  This could have been very bad.  I thinks some prayers were sent thanking God that T wasn't seriously injured or worse. 

Anyways on a lighter note I thought T kept the deflector shields on the Starship up all the time. 

Looking forward to Table Mesa.

[mnw42]

I'm happy you're OK.  This is why we require all actions to be locked open on a cease fire and guns with out a manual stop (like the AK) must have a  flag.

[Bo Smith]

I'm happy you're OK.  This is why we require all actions to be locked open on a cease fire and guns with out a manual stop (like the AK) must have a  flag.

I think I'd prefer the occasional ND, but that's just me.

It's not a dig. I'd rather weapon-proof my people than people-proof my weapons.

I never made any out-and-out accusations of complacency, but only that if all weapons really are always loaded, no one can ever say "I thought it was unloaded."

[RevDisk]

Bloody hell, T.  I'm glad you're ok.  Maybe I should have sent you a bottle of the good stuff instead of some lockpicks.   


I keep a bottle of Poitín (Poteen, potcheen, etc, Irish moonshine) for these kinds of occasions.  Must be used with care.  Last time I cracked a bottle open, I regained consciousness with two chicks making out in my living room, wearing Soviet furry hat and missing roughly 12 hours of missing time. 

[FMJ]

wearing Soviet furry hat

 Do you mean the ushankas or fish fur hats?  Because I learned what an actual furry is and does the other day.  

[THE NORSEMAN]

T-  The bright side, if there is one here, is that he shot out the cheapest window in the truck.  Serious.

As far as the young shooter goes, he does indeed need to get back on the horse, and soon.  Education?  It appears he's an intelligent, logical guy judging by his demeanor post incident, and he has learned a most valuable lesson in the most dramatic way at a low cost all things considered.  I doubt he will touch one again in the next decade or so without this incident running through the back of his mind. 

Glad the only casualty was a minor flesh wound to the truck.

[JesseL]

 Do you mean the ushankas or fish fur hats?  Because I learned what an actual furry is and does the other day.  

Regardless of what was meant (and I'm sure it was something like a ushanka) we will NOT be letting this thread drift into a discussion on furries.

[chiwar7178]

This situation brings up a few problems and solutions that all of us could probably learn something from; furthermore, apply the lessons learned to each of our own SOP's when it comes to visiting the range.  Yes, everyone involved directly, and those of us involved indirectly (that's each and every one of us here on WTA), were lucky this weekend.  None of us really need to push our luck when it comes to something like this.

As far as lessons learned and modifications to my range SOP's, I will acquire and begin using chamber flags. I will also have one person in the group to clear all weapons--while being supervised by all involved--so that everyone knows that every weapon is, in fact, unloaded and ready for transport.  CCW's excluded.  The "one person" will be whoever is the owner/operator of the vehicle that said weapons will be loaded into for transport; the "group" will be any and all personnel that will ride in said vehicle.

I know that there's nothing that any of us can do to absolutely, positively, beyond-any-shadow-of-a-doubt ensure that an AD/ND will not happen around us; however, we can develop habits that will make ourselves less likely to have an AD/ND ourselves; and, we can be on the lookout for those around us who aren't 100% up to speed on that matter.  Even if I'm screwing up, point it out--I'd do the same to you to ensure that we're all safer because of it.

[THE NORSEMAN]

You know, I have chamber flags, but until now I used them very rarely.  Usually only when required by range/match rules. 

That just changed.

[TimGerber]

The mark of a Man isn't that he made a mistake... but how he handles the mistake after it was made.

Couldn't agree more!  I had an ND when I was 12 years old during deer hunting season.  We were walking in a group, and I was the second to last man in line.  I went to check the safety of my Savage bolt action 30-30 while it was slung over my shoulder with the muzzle about 10 inches from my right ear.  It obviously wasn't on because I pushed on the trigger, and sent one round straight up into the air.  Scared the s___ out of me.  The guy behind me hit the dirt, and everyone had red faces and were giving me the evil eye.  My dad was furious.  He grabbed my gun, and threw it about 20 yards into the woods.  Told me to unload it, and go sit in the truck which was about two miles away for the rest of the day.  I grabbed my gun, left the group, and as soon as I was out of sight of the others I launched the entire contents of my stomach out into the snow.  Both of my ears rang for days after that.  I was sobbing by the time I made it to the truck.  To say that I was ashamed was an understatement.  I didn't say a word to anyone the rest of the day, and when I got home I went straight to bed.  Didn't sleep a wink.  You know what?  The next morning my dad woke me up along with my brothers, and went over the rules, made us all recite them to him.  He told me that I was invited back, but that if it ever happened again I was finished.  I went back.  None of my uncles or cousins said a word.  They knew that my dad took care of it.  I am now fanatical about range safety.  I follow the rules harder than anyone that I know, and I have never had another ND again.  I still get the willies when I think about this incident.  It changed the way that I handle guns today.

Tim Gerber

[FMJ]

^^Thanks for sharing the story.

Though I don't have any chamber flags, in my house if you have a non defensive weapon, the action is always open.  Such as when they let me borrow that 1300 I've mentioned...If it isn't put away in its case, the action is open.  I think I've been blessed to pick up good gun safety habits from the experienced people I've shot with in the past.

Let me share something about chamber flag type stuff...
One summer I was at a certain Boy Scout camp, and the rimfires, instead of having a proper chamber flag, the rangemaster had cut out a length of weed-whacker material (longer that the barrel) to put in the bore.  This weed-whacker-chamber-safety-device seemed to me like a pretty good alternative to a chamber flag.  I should add that the bright orange color and the stiffness made it especially suitable for this task.  So if you have a weed-whacker string and you need a chamber flag, here's some food for thought...

[Outbreak]

I know that there's nothing that any of us can do to absolutely, positively, beyond-any-shadow-of-a-doubt ensure that an AD/ND will not happen around us; however, we can develop habits that will make ourselves less likely to have an AD/ND ourselves; and, we can be on the lookout for those around us who aren't 100% up to speed on that matter.  Even if I'm screwing up, point it out--I'd do the same to you to ensure that we're all safer because of it.

There's also overkill. There's no reason we can't all act like, and be treated like adults while shooting. I don't need daddy to come check my guns to make sure they're unloaded, especially my CCW (which is always loaded, almost by definition). I agree that getting him back on the horse, and soon, is a good idea. Let this dwell on him too long and he'll get more and more scared by it. Taking a class is never a bad idea, and I would encourage him to do so, but not letting him shoot before then, imho, is a mistake.

I've made mistakes with guns before. Once, a couple months ago, I had a buddy over checking out the new safe and a few new guns he hadn't seen yet. We were comparing my Beretta 92 with the M-9's we both carry on duty, and he made a comment about the sights being better. I had been handling the gun without clearing it (mistake #1) because I was complacent in the fact that I never put a loaded gun in my safe, and I'm the only one with access to it, so it was unloaded in my mind (mistake #2). I sighted it up against a wall, which wasn't really a safe direction (I don't know if drywall on the inside and the brick facade on the outside of my house would stop a 9mm from 5 yards, but I don't want to find out; mistake #3) and pulled the trigger(BIG mistake #4). It went click, because it was in fact unloaded. I immediately put the gun back in the safe, locked it, and went to the fridge for a beer. Didn't even open the safe for about 2 days, at all.

Big thing I learned was that consistency is a good thing with guns. Doing the same thing every time is good for shooting, as well as handling and storing. I never put a loaded gun into the safe, and that habit saved me that day. When all my other good habits failed, that one strong link in the chain came to the rescue. And even though I had never failed to clear a gun in the past, I sure as hell will do it every single time in the future.

My money says Jared's lesson is ingrained even more than mine. T's idea to bring him out again, soon, but treat him like a noob is a good one, and Harm's demand that he get some formal education is good, too.

[chiwar7178]

CCW were specifically excluded from being checked.  I don't want anyone else to handle my CCW; therefore, I won't require that I handle anyone else's.

My main concern is for weapons that will be stored in my vehicle during transport.  I'm not 100% on the laws here in Texas, since I am relatively new here, but I'm pretty sure having a round in the chamber while the weapon's in the trunk is a no-no according to law; regardless of law though, I know that I don't want a weapon with a round in the chamber rolling around in my trunk, since I'm responsible for any and all materials in my vehicle while I'm driving it.

[JesseL]

Arizona weapon/vehicle laws are pretty relaxed.

There is no distinguishing between loaded or unloaded, and guns may be stored either in plain sight, in map pockets, center consoles, or glove boxes. They may also be kept out of sight if they're not immediately accessible (so under a seat is a no-no, but in the trunk is fine). If you have a CWP, the restriction on being accessible but out of sight goes away too.

[Outbreak]

I've been stopped on the way to the range in Texas, informed the officer that I was armed, and held a CCW (which is required in Texas), and that I was headed to the range, so my back seat was piled high with rifle cases. He didn't care about the cased guns, only my CCW, which he had me hand to him, and he held on to during the stop. AFAIK, there's nothing illegal about loaded rifles in the car in TX. Though, I'm not a lawyer.

As far as weapons "rolling around in the trunk," put them in a case. Secure them in some way. Firearms should never "roll around" anywhere.

[chiwar7178]

Outbreak, yes, secure weapons in cases whenever possible.  I however, don't trust them enough to have loaded weapons in them--Condition 3 is the absolute farthest I'll take any weapon being transported besides a CCW on my person.

[Outbreak]

To each his own. I don't usually carry loaded guns in cases, either, but I also know there is no way a gun will fire without someone pulling the trigger. A case that covers the trigger (I can't imagine one that wouldn't) is just as safe as a holster, IMHO.

[mnw42]

A holstered pistol is considered safe - regardless of its condition.  I RO at a public range.  We check every gun before we allow anyone to go in front of the firing line and requiring range flags make our job simpler and makes it harder to miss something.  Every precaution must be taken because the rules are mere suggestions to some.