Why not FoF Training?

[TXGunGeek]

So, yesterday I helped teach a Force on Force class. This was partially a session for us to work out scenarios for the upcoming Polite Society Tactical Conference. We only had 5 students show for it. Granted this was a good number for us to work with in this instance but it re raised an interesting question we ponder repeatedly. We cut back the hours and cost to make it match more of what we needed to do but even the classes that we normally do where we have a number of scripted scenarios that we run over and over don't get the demand that shooting classes do.

Why aren't people interested in FoF training?

People will spend great deals of money on learning to shoot better and developing their mechanical skill for 5% (or less) of the time. Face it, when a defensive situation occurs, shooting is only a tiny fraction of the event. There is so much more to it that involves thinking and doing other things. Yet, people will jump at the chance to take a shooting class and balk at the same chance to do some real FoF training.

Is it that people want to avoid finding out just how bad things can get?
Is it that people don't want to "get into a fight"?
Is it lack of faith in their skill and not wanting to look bad?
Not wanting to face their possible mortality?

There is so much more to an encounter than shooting. Like recognizing what is developing and avoiding it altogether to not making things worse to finding out just where do you draw the line. People find out a lot about themselves and their reaction to a situation in FoF training. Like the person who is doing things right and really on top of it right up until they lose it and go WAY off the deep end.

Don't people realize that it would be better to learn and experience this in a controlled environment rather than for the first time during a violent encounter where the penalty for losing is death?

I'm not talking about the general population here either. I'm talking about people who are serious enough about their own protection and defense of their family that they are willing to spend serious dollars on equipment and serious dollars and time in learning to shoot better and maybe take classes on shooting tactics but not training to put those tactics to the test.

[Khorne]

maybe they think that they're not proficient enough with their firearms?  I have no idea why someone WOULDN"T want to.  As for me, I've been thinkinb about this a great deal lately.  I was talking to Ogre about it the other day.  I think we definitely need to do more FonF training.  Squad movements, tactics, roles in the unit, etc.  The American military wins battles not because we can do tactical reloads, but because our soldiers and Marines know how to work, move, and fight as a unit.

[tire iron]

I think one of the main reasons is that they (the shooter) don't do FoF is they don't want to have their bubble burst regarding "fighting" with a firearm.  They go to the range or to a match - and shoot it *alone* - or even in a 'mano-a-mano' plate shoot, pin shoot etc - but still - everything is quite scripted - they (the shooter) can tell themselves that they are "ready" for that event (a gunfight).  To add FoF training would allow the possibility that maybe everything they have done their whole lives won't really work for FoF.  This would in turn lead to the conclusion they are NOT ready for "the event" - which means they don't know everything they thought they knew.

During FoF - one must swallow one's pride - as the theories and ideas one has based their whole training life on will be tested in a much more real world environment.  Usually the ideas and theories that one brings with them are proven wrong.  That hurts the ego.  A lot of guys don't like that kind of hurt.

cheers

tire iron

 

[TXGunGeek]

they don't want to have their bubble burst regarding "fighting" with a firearm.

That is one of the most recurring responses elsewhere.

And Tire Iron, It is fortuitous that you reply, as one of the scenarios we fleshed out started with the "intended victim" changing a flat tire on their car while their PDW was inside in the center console/glove box.

So many people are big on  "I just keep it in the glove box as it is too cumbersome to carry on me all the time." Not realizing that inside the car is not very high on the list of places you are likely to be attacked although it does occasionally happen.

[Harm]

I'm honestly not sure why people don't seek out FonF.  I for one would love to do it.  I know that one of our local training centers offers it on occasion.  Waiting for the next itteration where it matches my available times. 

I think TI and Khorne both nailed it.  I think its fear to find out how unreal your training has been.  I've said before that when I've had opportunities to compete either competive steel plates against others, or against a stop watch I have not done well, but in each instance I've learned what I need to address in the future.  I see FonF as vitally the same thing.  I hope I won't suck, but if I do SO WHAT, take your beating, then learn from it. 

I think people are afraid to be humbled. 

[luke213(adamsholsters)]

Not sure, personally I'm all sorts of interested. When I got into airsoft 7+ years ago that was one of the big reasons to play the game was to gain some muscle memory that would have more use than some of the other outdoor hobbies and sports. I will say I can bring an AR to target on a moving person much much better than before I played for years. Granted that's not to say I got any professional good training but it sure was better than not getting anything out of the experience.

Personally I'm looking forward to getting back to the woods where I can do some force and force testing, and I would love to do some training but right now it would be finding the time and money to do it. When I'm home I'm just too far from everything to really be able to do it, when we're travelling it's very hard to schedule around my wife's work schedule at the hospital with our only vehicle;) So I'm the hermit who stays home and builds holsters:)

Overall though I think that it's one of the best most viable tools we have available and with the fairly recent advances being made with airsoft for the price I can't see any good reason not to use it as just one more tool so to speak:)

Luke

[Harm]

Hell with all the new Paintball guns that look like AR's there's no reason not to anymore! 

[luke213(adamsholsters)]

Agreed I miss getting out and shooting more stuff;) Hmm airsoft AR goodness;)



The price is the real reason I can't see not using it, yes there are some shortcomings but there are also some advantages to getting to test some real life scenarios and get just more information. It also allows you to add some of the stress that is involved in fighting a person rather than paper.

Luke

[Harm]

Luke is that and Airsoft or a Paintball gun?  I'm more inclined to paintball myself.  More reach and less chance of arguing about if you got shot or not. 

[luke213(adamsholsters)]

Airsoft:) We shall need to have a discussion about them at some point;)

My preference is towards airsoft but I've done a fair bit of both over the years. I don't want this to get off topic on the merits of either one so I won't go into it:) Generally they both have good and bad but there are some really nice advantages to airsoft for a training platform.

Luke

[GeorgeHill]

I fully support Paintball for FOF Training.  It's effective.  It's harsh.  And it is great sport.  It nails home the fact that you really really don't want to get hit.

[TXGunGeek]

I'll see your turn of the course of discussion and raise you a rebuttal.

Paint marking ammunition in converted real steel (Simunition) or Airsoft gives you more realistic gun handling and situational work. When you have a CHL holder and a bad guy that are in a stop-n-rob with a bunch of other people, if you are using paintball guns it is pretty obvious from the get go who is playing active rolls and what they are doing. With airsoft or Sim, the guns are concealed as they would be on the street and the scenario plays out more as it would in public. As far as discussion of who shot whom first and were the hits good, that is judged by the instructors / safety officers who are ever present in each scenario to keep them from degenerating into blind paintball shootouts.

For field work with a unit or working on movement in groups that may be one for paintball but for teaching CHL's in single or couple tactics on street scenarios in a store, restaurant, gas station, parking lot etc., with multiple innocent / extraneous role players just like you would likely have in such events, Sim or Airsoft are much more realistic handling and the primary choice for realistic FoF training.

Another point is that the student is operating a gun that is "the same" as what they carry on the street, carried in the same holster or style that they carry on the street. That means the same manual of arms and the same placement so all the practice they did on the range carries over 1:1 to their gun handling in the scenarios. You just can't do that with a paintball gun. If they are trying to get an unfamiliar gun into play form an unfamiliar position, you loose a good part of the lesson right there.

I have to go back to the 60 Minutes  hit piece about guns on campus. They took a bunch of students and gave them unfamiliar guns that they had never operated before and made them carry them under cloths they would not normally wear and put them in a class lecture that an instructor then invades and shoot the lecturer and then goes after the student. Total setup to fail. (but that is another rant that I already blogged about when it happened)

Our goal in class is to set the student up to win by doing everything correctly. Even if it means stopping action and running it over with the same students and directing the action in certain ways. It may very well end up with a student who locks up and just can't go through with it. Better to find out here then when the defecation contacts the rotary oscillator for real on the street.

[GeorgeHill]

Simunition is more realistic, true.  But it is very expensive unless you are sponsored by a Department.  Such a comment is like like saying a Bugati Veyron is faster than your corvette.  Might be true... but we are not in positions to roll Veyrons.

[tire iron]

We have talked about and agreed that FoF training is a "must do" in order to really "practice" the skills/mindset/tactics that one needs to survive armed encounters - but there is a "dark side" to FoF training too.

Force on Force training MUST be done ‘right’.  If it is done ‘wrong’ – it can lead to bad habits that can get you or your team-mates KILLED.

The problem with paintballs and airsoft pellets – is that almost EVERYTHING is ‘cover’ to them.  They do not penetrate like live rounds – which is good – or they would be ‘lethal’ – but it does present some interesting challenges.

For instance, in an urban environment, people hide behind almost everything in a room.  Couches, chairs, sofas, end tables, walls, doors, etc.  These are ALL ‘cover’ for paintball and airsoft.  SO…if you train to hide behind these and think you are safe – that is BAD TRAINING.  Because you are NOT safe from real rounds when hiding behind ANY of these objects.

So – what to do??  Simple.  Make your ‘Urban’ training area out of ‘butcher’ paper or ‘newsprint’ or 'light poster board'.  Paint and airsoft pellets whiz through these like bullets through walls or light poster board.  NOW you can shoot and BE SHOT through walls, through couches, chairs, sofas, etc.  Make ALL of these items from butcher paper or newsprint.  Very simple frames can be made of the outline of any of these items, and the paper stapled to the frame.  That also makes for easy ‘replacement’ of furniture.  And they can be moved around very easily too.

THAT IS GOOD TRAINING.

This will FORCE you to think fast – or ‘die’.  As mentioned above - the ‘pain’ brought on by the pellets/paint balls is a great teacher.

cheers

tire iron

[seanp]

I think that some people just don't think about it regarding guns.  It's the same as martial arts.  Lots of people spar in the martial arts, very few practice realistic fighting scenarios when they do it.  Like 3 - 4 on ones, etc...

I also think that people distance themselves from the violent aspects of these things.  Airsoft and paintball are fun, which is why people do them.  I think that people would balk at the suggestion that they are training to kill or be killed.  And by and large, few people can develop the mindset to take training aids seriously.  Most people take risks against rubber knives or paint ball guns that they would never consider against the real thing.  Take a group of your fellow shooters out paint balling one night and watch how relaxed their muzzle control becomes.