A defensive shooting writeup you should read

[GeorgeHill]

The way I see it, I get the sense that this guy fired his two to the chest and one to the head so fast - both badguys didn't even have time to fall.  I bet that the two to the chest was enough to put them both down.
With a 9mm, he would have done the same thing, just as fast with those last One To The Head shots finishing out the string of fire with the same results.  The question is would the Two To The Chest have stopped them?  Probably certain that they would have.  Given a touch more time, I am sure it would have.  
No one can die fast enough for the "Failure Drill".  This guy was in "Everything Looks Like A Nail" mode so he might as well called it his "Hammer Drill".
Two badguys.  Two Failure Drills.  Six shots in probably under three seconds.  His first shots could have dumped them both.

[sohmdaddy]

Another thing to keep in mind was the bg's were 5 ft (feet not yards) away. He didn't have much distance to see if they would stop from the first two shots. But, I think that's just what he had practiced, so that's what he did.

[johnnyboy83]

the all standing rule in this measuring contest is shoot the most powerful handgun you can handle consistently and reliably. If its a .22 but you're good with it, then its better than a 38 you can't hit with. This also means likely shooting the heaviest bullet from whatever caliber you are handling. Any projectile is good, but simply put... you shoot the heaviest, most powerful bullet that you are effective with.

[Doug Wojtowicz]

the all standing rule in this measuring contest is shoot the most powerful handgun you can handle consistently and reliably. If its a .22 but you're good with it, then its better than a 38 you can't hit with. This also means likely shooting the heaviest bullet from whatever caliber you are handling. Any projectile is good, but simply put... you shoot the heaviest, most powerful bullet that you are effective with.

Sadly, the 147 grain "subsonics" are gelded stuff.  Pump them up to their proper pressure and velocity, they'd rule the roost.  They'd also break older 9mm's (but not Glocks).

[GeorgeHill]

Now, I wasnt saying I wouldn't have done the same thing... just that there wasn't enough time to evaluate if there was a failure... he just went straight to the failure drill.  I'd have done similar.

[FMJ]

This is pretty cool.  Where is it from?

[Doug Wojtowicz]

Michael Mann's movie Collateral.

[seanp]

Let's see here.  There was no perceived reaction to the .45ACP rounds to the chest.  So how would using an 8 shot .45 been better than say, a 15 shot 9mm?  How do you know what happened with the shots to the chests?  What if there were three BGs?  Good lord, we are talking about a difference of what, 3mm?

Less.  2.4mm.

Still, a 230gr 45 slug has 22% more frontal surface area than a 124gr 9mm, and 97% more mass.

If they both make a hole 12 inches, or about 305mm deep, that means that the 45 makes a hole with a volume of about 311 cubic centimeters.  The 9mm makes a hole with a volume of about 195 cubic centimeters.  That means the 45 round makes a permanent wound cavity one and a half times as large as the 9mm.

Assuming they both expand 40%, the difference is even more pronounced.  It's a geometric progression.

I don't have any faith in the "lightening strike" school of thought that small, high velocity projectiles produce devastating wounds.  Human tissue is astoundingly elastic.

Big holes make big bleeds.

And that is how people die from gunshots -  big, big holes that geyser out the blood.

If you use the logic that the real cause of death is hypovolemia, then the 45 is King

[LittleLebowski]

This is pretty cool.  Where is it from?

  Go away and don't come back until you've seen that movie.  Appalling.

[LittleLebowski]

  My .45 exit wound is tiny.  Here's the bullet.  Notice the bone on it still in the third pic.

Less.  2.4mm.

Still, a 230gr 45 slug has 22% more frontal surface area than a 124gr 9mm, and 97% more mass.

If they both make a hole 12 inches, or about 305mm deep, that means that the 45 makes a hole with a volume of about 311 cubic centimeters.  The 9mm makes a hole with a volume of about 195 cubic centimeters.  That means the 45 round makes a permanent wound cavity one and a half times as large as the 9mm.

Assuming they both expand 40%, the difference is even more pronounced.  It's a geometric progression.

I don't have any faith in the "lightening strike" school of thought that small, high velocity projectiles produce devastating wounds.  Human tissue is astoundingly elastic.

Big holes make big bleeds.

And that is how people die from gunshots -  big, big holes that geyser out the blood.

If you use the logic that the real cause of death is hypovolemia, then the 45 is King

[johnnyboy83]

Sadly, the 147 grain "subsonics" are gelded stuff.  Pump them up to their proper pressure and velocity, they'd rule the roost.  They'd also break older 9mm's (but not Glocks).

I carry 115 +p+ Federal bulk LE loads in my 9mm's, but I've gotten some 950 ft/sec 147 gr Golden Sabers so I'll be swapping to those. I have a Sig 228, G17, K9 Kahr, and a FEG Hi-Power in 9mm. I'd question only the FEG with a steady diet of high pressure ammo, but after buying it used and putting 9000 rnds through it with no visible wear, I'm not too concerned with it. I either carry my SW1911 or my XD in 45. Either will handle the 230 gr +p Federal HST's that I use.

Question: If we relate this to vehicles, This is like a Civic (2900 lbs) hitting a wall at 55mph vs a Pick-up (5500lbs) hitting a wall at 40 mph. 115gr 9mm @ 1200ft-sec vs 230gr 45 @ 850 ft-sec. I don't know how it'd compare, but I think it'd be interesting.

[LittleLebowski]

And that is how people die from gunshots -  big, big holes that geyser out the blood.

If you use the logic that the real cause of death is hypovolemia, then the 45 is King.

  Only one case but I didn't bleed out much.  Here's the seat I sat in during the ride to the hospital.

[Doug Wojtowicz]

I carry 115 +p+ Federal bulk LE loads in my 9mm's, but I've gotten some 950 ft/sec 147 gr Golden Sabers so I'll be swapping to those. I have a Sig 228, G17, K9 Kahr, and a FEG Hi-Power in 9mm.

So, you're actually castrating your 9mm's, as that 147-grain/950 fps combination is weak, under pressure, and barely worth the change.  115gr +P+ BPLE is pretty widely used, and NEVER had the reported kinds of failures as say the lone Winchester Silvertip that actually entered the torso and heart of the sociopath who was busily murdering FBI agents. 

I'd question only the FEG with a steady diet of high pressure ammo, but after buying it used and putting 9000 rnds through it with no visible wear, I'm not too concerned with it. I either carry my SW1911 or my XD in 45. Either will handle the 230 gr +p Federal HST's that I use.

See, 950 is a great velocity for anything over 200 grains.  But you're carving off a lot of mass and expecting that same velocity to work in a 9mm?  Makes no sense.  And, in general, the 127 grain stuff at +P or +P+ pressures seems to be the perfect weight/velocity combination.

Question: If we relate this to vehicles, This is like a Civic (2900 lbs) hitting a wall at 55mph vs a Pick-up (5500lbs) hitting a wall at 40 mph. 115gr 9mm @ 1200ft-sec vs 230gr 45 @ 850 ft-sec. I don't know how it'd compare, but I think it'd be interesting.

Weight isn't everything there.  We're looking at construction.  There's not a lot of frame and solid mass in the front end of a Honda Civic.  It's not a pure weight/velocity situation.

[Doug Wojtowicz]

Still, a 230gr 45 slug has 22% more frontal surface area

That's junk.  Are we looking at FMJ?  Because both are notoriously streamlined and don't contact a lot of area.  JHP's, though, the .45/230 JHP has a lot more contact.

than a 124gr 9mm, and 97% more mass.

This ISN'T junk math. 

Big holes make big bleeds.

And that is how people die from gunshots -  big, big holes that geyser out the blood.

If you use the logic that the real cause of death is hypovolemia, then the 45 is King

Eventual death is one thing.  Baby Face Nelson took 17 .45 caliber hits and bled to death.  But in the hours between when he was shot, he killed the two men who hit him with all of those .45's, drove home, and proceeded to take a nap wherein he bled to death.

YAY BLOOD LOSS!

[Beamish]

  Go away and don't come back until you've seen that movie.  Appalling.

Dude, he is 17.   I am quite sure your redneck self was remarkably under-informed about films when you were 17.  Of course, there were only Silent Films back then anyway...

[LittleLebowski]

Dude, he is 17.   I am quite sure your redneck self was remarkably under-informed about films when you were 17.  Of course, there were only Silent Films back then anyway...

  Dude, I was kidding.  I make joke....

[seanp]

  Only one case but I didn't bleed out much.  Here's the seat I sat in during the ride to the hospital.

So what?

We are talking about relative matters.

Until you do the same thing with a 9mm its just anecdotal.

I'm not knocking your injuries, just saying that one bullet hole is not all bullet holes.  And I think that we can both agree that you were lucky.  The same bullet through a kidney or liver would have resulted in a different picture.  Thank God it wasn't.

But the statistical probability is that bigger bullets make bigger holes with bigger chances of causing critical damage when they hit.

I'm not saying you are wrong.  I'm just saying I'd rather have a G22 than a G17 in the same situation.

[seanp]

  My .45 exit wound is tiny.  Here's the bullet.  Notice the bone on it still in the third pic

Like I said, tissue is elastic.

[LittleLebowski]

  I did not intend for this to be a 9mm vs everything debate.  I meant for it be more of a discussion on hi cap weapons and the need for defensive shooting insurance.  By all means, shoot .45 or .40.  All evidence shows that when comparing quality defense loads, there are only marginal differences between the major handgun calibers but if you guys like reduced capacity and 50% more expensive training ammo (defensive ammo is about the same), knock yourselves out.  I shoot a lot and I run my guns hard.  I could not afford to shoot as much if I moved to a .40 or .45.  Nor would it do me any danged bit of extra good in a real world scenario.  I shoot at least 500 rounds of 9mm a month.  I buy quality brass ammo locally, about $220 for 1K rounds of 9mm.  I see that on ammoman.com I can buy non-reloadable Wolf costing $169 per 500 rds.  So is .40 and .45 50% more effective than 9mm?  No.  Would you rather shoot or talk about 2.4mm (or less)?  I mad my decision and I'm at the range every week.

[seanp]

That's junk.  Are we looking at FMJ?  Because both are notoriously streamlined and don't contact a lot of area.  JHP's, though, the .45/230 JHP has a lot more contact.

Yeah, I suppose I should have figured out actual surface area.  But that varies in terms of bullet design and I was tired and math is not really my strong point.  The 22%  is just the difference between the .45 and the 9mm in terms of diameter.  The actual surface area would be exponentially larger.

Larger and bigger.

No matter how you cut it though, the 45 is still bigger than the 9mm.

This ISN'T junk math.  Eventual death is one thing.  Baby Face Nelson took 17 .45 caliber hits and bled to death.  But in the hours between when he was shot, he killed the two men who hit him with all of those .45's, drove home, and proceeded to take a nap wherein he bled to death.

That's sad.  He was such a nice manic depressive in "Oh Brother.  But again, anecdotal.  Would he have died faster or slower if shot with 22's?  9mm's?  A howitzer?  An elephant gun?

If you told me Baby Face Nelson took 17 hits from a 45 to the head at 5ft and lived, I'd be pretty impressed.  But I don't think that is the case.  Maybe he took all of those shots in the fat.  He was a fat guy, right?  Well, a million shots in the ass does not equal one shot through the head.

If the bullet does not hit a vital target, it does not matter.  It is the same as hitting air.

Again. bullets kill by making blood come out.  Or by destroying vital materials.  That is all.

They do not kill by magic "knock down" power or anything else.

Bigger bullets mean bigger blood loss and bigger odds of critical damage.

[LittleLebowski]

  YAY SHOT PLACEMENT!

[seanp]

Would you rather shoot or talk about 2.4mm (or less)?  I mad my decision and I'm at the range every week.

I shoot .45, because:

Federal legislation limits my magazine to 10 rounds.  So I figure ten rounds of .45 is better than ten rounds of 9mm.

Bigger is better when making holes in meat.

Recoil doesn't bug me and the price in ammo seems steep until you buy it by the case, as I do.

Then it's only double.

[LittleLebowski]

  You can still buy more for your dollar and I already mentioned I buy by the case. (commented out because I missed the point seanp conceded about ammo being double the price)  Not sure where I complained about recoil   

  Anyway, what do you carry?

[LittleLebowski]

  Yup, those 9mms are weak and won't kill anything

[seanp]

Anyway, what do you carry?

I don't.  I can't legally in this jurisdiction.  No way, no how.

What is in my bedside safe though is a Norinco 1911a1 with a couple of loaded mags.  185gr Winchester Silvertips.