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Author Topic: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.  (Read 4440 times)

MTK20

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The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
« on: May 17, 2016, 01:47:49 PM »
Well, maybe not quite yet, but can we at least claim that collectively as a forum we saw this coming?

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/rise-fall-double-action-semi-auto/

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/




Quote
“[With] a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We’ve lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter striker fired action triggers and candidly I doubt we’ll see the pendulum swing back any time soon… The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents.” - Todd Green

Quote taken from: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols&p=73009&viewfull=1#post73009

Just some points that made the author take a step back from striker fired guns (via the "why I switched" article):

1. If you use appendix carry, you have an extra layer of safety with the longer/heavier trigger pull.

2. If you train a lot, your gun comes in and out of your holster multiple times a session. Reholstering is one of the most dangerous things we do as shooters. Once again the longer trigger pull puts the odds in your favour.

3. Even the experts make mistakes. No explaining needed there.

4. Many striker fired triggers are just plain terrible. If you are particular about the triggers in your guns, which most of us are, then a sucky trigger can really take the fun out of shooting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what do y'all say? Are tactical trends cyclical? Have the old hammer fired guns not sunset after all? Are we destined to go back to the glory days of people carrying wheelguns as the norm, dual model 29's and new york reload holsters? (Oh sorry, the last one was nostalgic projection on my part  :-[)

We have seemed to hit kind of a plateau with our current striker fired gun craze, surely someone will either re-recognise the merits of past designs or come up with some new hotness that will be all the rage. I'm eager to see what the future of handgunning has in store.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    JesseL

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 02:45:39 PM »
    I don't buy the argument that a longer and or harder trigger pull will have a long term impact on the rate of negligent discharges. Plenty of people shot themselves by accident back when everyone carried double action revolvers.

    There's the possibility that when someone (or some agency) switches from lighter/shorter triggers to longer/heavier ones they'll see a temporary reduction in negligent discharges while they adjust.

    In the long term though, any trigger that's usable is going to be susceptible to being fired by accident when people get complacent about trigger discipline.
    Arizona

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 02:47:13 PM »
    So now we are going to say that NDs are no longer solely a result of operator error and violation of the Four Rules, but instead partially because of equipment?  I take exception to that.  There is nothing wrong with a DA trigger, but let us not embrace them as a substitute for trigger discipline.  For instance, how many cops (and others) who came up on revolvers had NDs with their brand-new Glocks?  Prior to light triggers, trigger discipline was just not stressed as it is today. 

    As the one article says, DA/SA triggers also require familiarization training between the trigger pulls.  Not that difficult,  but also not possible for everyone, especially new shooters, or those on a prohibitive budget.  Experiences will vary, but I found the very first time I shot a Glock, I was shooting better than I ever had with a new pistol, and better overall than I ever had with all but a few.  I am not suggesting Glocks are for everyone, but I do think that the mid weight and consistent trigger was mostly responsible.

    Everyone is going to have a different opinion, but for mine, I like having a consistent trigger pull.  Whether that is a DA revolver, a SAO pistol with a safety, or a Striker-Fired with or without. 

    I suppose it amuses me how the above authors can recommend a DA/SA trigger to compensate for poor trigger discipline, but assume those same shooters who can't be bothered to master their trigger finger, are going to somehow master the transition between two different pulls.  You can't solve a training issue with better equipment.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 02:57:38 PM »
    ^THAT^
    Arizona

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 04:06:42 PM »
    +1 on Kaso
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 09:20:21 PM »




    I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
    I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.
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    MTK20

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 09:44:53 PM »
    I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
    I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.


    I like your reasoning. Now, granted, always keep your trigger finger off of the trigger, if you have an ND then it is still your responsibility, but that doesn't mean we have to make it easier for operator errors to occur. I do not personally use appendix carry or "tactical nutsack carry" as affectionately dubbed by some shooters  :facepalm, but if I did I would certainly give a hard look at something like a Sig or Beretta 92 as opposed to my Glock 19. The main reason I don't carry appendix is because I have yet to find a good holster for the task. I am sure they are out there, I just have yet to find them.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 09:51:22 PM »
    And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.
    Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

    I read something a while back, pretty sure it was you, that stated 'the average gunfight has one-point-(something) rounds fired.  What do they all have in common?  The 'one.' ' 

    The first round being the most critical, I have yet to find a service grade auto with a DA trigger that I like.  (I found a .32 PPK once, that had a DA trigger I could keep on target, but a .32 hardly counts)  Seriously, find me an autoloader with a Good DA trigger.  Find me one that rivals a S&W wheelgun and I'll take that pistol in DAO.  Because a GOOD double action wheelgun is easier to make hits with than a Glock.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 09:55:02 PM »
    The main reason I don't carry appendix is because I have yet to find a good holster for the task. I am sure they are out there, I just have yet to find them.
      I thought the main reason was to keep yourself attractive to all of those female nursing students.  :hmm  Pretty sure they won't be chasing after a castrato... :whistle
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 09:56:01 PM »
    Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

    I read something a while back, pretty sure it was you, that stated 'the average gunfight has one-point-(something) rounds fired.  What do they all have in common?  The 'one.' ' 

    The first round being the most critical, I have yet to find a service grade auto with a DA trigger that I like.  (I found a .32 PPK once, that had a DA trigger I could keep on target, but a .32 hardly counts)  Seriously, find me an autoloader with a Good DA trigger.  Find me one that rivals a S&W wheelgun and I'll take that pistol in DAO.  Because a GOOD double action wheelgun is easier to make hits with than a Glock.

    You make some interesting points, Kaso.

    bold/underline: I thought you said you very much liked the Sig P228, that it worked for you?

    bold/italics: I find this to be a very interesting point. In my personal experience, I still need more rounds through revolvers before I can get as accurate as my Glock. I am actually quite envious that you can connect better with a good Smith & Wesson than a Glock.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    MTK20

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 10:01:38 PM »
      I thought the main reason was to keep yourself attractive to all of those female nursing students.  :hmm  Pretty sure they won't be chasing after a castrato... :whistle

     :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

    Well played, sir  :thumbup1.


    They can be quite tenacious at times.... Sadly  ::).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 10:10:57 PM »
    bold/underline: I thought you said you very much liked the Sig P228, that it worked for you?

    bold/italics: I find this to be a very interesting point. In my personal experience, I still need more rounds through revolvers before I can get as accurate as my Glock. I am actually quite envious that you can connect better with a good Smith & Wesson than a Glock.
    I liked the P228.  Good, solid gun.  We connected.  The DA pull was usable, but nothing special.  At least not that I remember, now four years later.

    The Glock - and every other striker I have fired - has a 'jump,' right when the trigger disconnects and the striker releases.  This jerks the front sight either left or right.  Not a big deal when firing two handed, but it becomes noticeable single handed.  Revolvers...  Smiths, anyway... have a long, consistent pull.  No stacking.  Much easier to master.
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    MTK20

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 10:20:06 PM »
    I liked the P228.  Good, solid gun.  We connected.  The DA pull was usable, but nothing special.  At least not that I remember, now four years later.

    The Glock - and every other striker I have fired - has a 'jump,' right when the trigger disconnects and the striker releases.  This jerks the front sight either left or right.  Not a big deal when firing two handed, but it becomes noticeable single handed.  Revolvers...  Smiths, anyway... have a long, consistent pull.  No stacking.  Much easier to master.

    Yes, George, you, myself and others have commented on this odd effect before. IIRC, my shots always pull slightly left with my Glocks. Regarding Smiths, my beloved carry piece (686+) was hitting low for some reason when I was at the range the other day (and I was doing some close range Mozambique drills). Also to add insult to injury, I am now having light primer strikes, so off to the Smith she goes.... Again  ::). I am so damn tired of packing this soulless yet effective plastic on my hip.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 11:45:31 PM »
    Yes, George, you, myself and others have commented on this odd effect before. IIRC, my shots always pull slightly left with my Glocks.
    Mine usually pulls right.  It all depends upon how much finger is on the trigger.  If I put significantly more or less, it will pull left.  There is one verrry small spot on my trigger finger 'pad' that when centered on the trigger, will pull directly to the rear with no jump.  But it is very small, and my instinctive grip when drawing does not put my finger in the right spot for it.  Believe me, I've tried learning it.

    Regarding Smiths, my beloved carry piece (686+) was hitting low for some reason when I was at the range the other day (and I was doing some close range Mozambique drills). Also to add insult to injury, I am now having light primer strikes, so off to the Smith she goes.... Again  ::). I am so damn tired of packing this soulless yet effective plastic on my hip.
    You just had a trigger job done, yes?  Send it back to the same guy - it needs a heavier hammer spring put in.  Hopefully he did more than just install a lighter spring...  :eh
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 12:17:46 AM »
    I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
    I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.


    I agree with all points.   I've had experts say "Glocks are just as safe as a Sig/Beretta/etc.".....mechanically they are...yes.....the human operator? no.

         It's a matter of practice, and what tradeoffs you want.

      I've practiced enough with my Beretta 92 that My first round DA shots are in the exact same group as the followup SA shots.   I've also put MANY more rounds than most people would through it along with THOUSANDS of dryfire practice. 

      I've practiced with striker fire....between my Ruger SR's, dad's SR and dad's XD I've used I have probably......4? thousands rounds through them......I can NOT like a striker trigger.  I much prefer and seem to shoot a heavy DA trigger much better. 
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 12:40:03 AM »
    Mine usually pulls right.  It all depends upon how much finger is on the trigger.  If I put significantly more or less, it will pull left.  There is one verrry small spot on my trigger finger 'pad' that when centered on the trigger, will pull directly to the rear with no jump.  But it is very small, and my instinctive grip when drawing does not put my finger in the right spot for it.  Believe me, I've tried learning it.
     You just had a trigger job done, yes?  Send it back to the same guy - it needs a heavier hammer spring put in.  Hopefully he did more than just install a lighter spring...  :eh

    Yeah, the same guy is getting it again, with the stock spring.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 12:58:16 AM »
    Yeah, the same guy is getting it again, with the stock spring.
    Are you saying he is putting the stock spring back in, or that it is in now?
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 03:13:17 AM »
    Another huge positive in the DA/SA guns favor is the hammer. You can set a thumb on that hammer as you reholster. So any movement of that hammer is an instant sign something is wrong. It is one of the things I miss the most once I transitioned to Glock and S&W M&P from the Beretta.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 03:24:45 AM »
    Are you saying he is putting the stock spring back in, or that it is in now?

    Putting the stock spring back in. It currently has a Brownells spring in it (I previously was mistaken and thought it was a Wolff spring). Mind you not much has been transparent, considering this trigger job was meant as a birthday present.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 12:16:26 PM »
    Check your strain screw (the small screw on the lower front part of the grip) as they can loosen up and cause light strikes.  Even if you can get a quarter of a turn it could be enough to get positive ignition.

    Putting the stock spring back in. It currently has a Brownells spring in it (I previously was mistaken and thought it was a Wolff spring). Mind you not much has been transparent, considering this trigger job was meant as a birthday present.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 01:09:04 PM »
    Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

    I have.  Yes.  Because that's how I practice... so that's what I did.

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 01:14:31 PM »
    I like your reasoning. Now, granted, always keep your trigger finger off of the trigger...
    But unlike the DA guns, Strikers are Unforgiving of mistakes or foreign objects that might unwittingly find their way into the trigger guard.  I wont bother pulling up the videos from YouTube and other sources showing this happening or the results.  The guy with the old holster that sat down in his car, the guy that leaned up against the counter in McDonalds.  The cop at the gunstore that checked his carry gun against the size of the gun he was looking at and then reholstered... and then there is the famous "I'm the only one professional enough in this room"...
    Discuss Training all you want - but these things HAPPEN.
    They happen a lot less with DA guns.  And with a Hammer, you can put your thumb on the hammer and you can feel it move if something is amiss.  With a Striker, you only hear the Bang to tell you something was wrong.
    Mechanically they are all pretty much all SAFE as they can get.  But DA guns help dampen the Human Error.  It's the Human Error that is the problem, of course.  But the DA trigger pull is far more forgiving of Human Error.  Of course ND's can still happen... They just happen a lot less with DA guns.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #22 on: May 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM »
    George put it best on the unforgiving front, AND on the thumb cocking training.

    Kaso, you mention "who thumb cocks in a high stress situation" but in THAT instance, we're talking quick draw. And a quick draw is no substitute for situational awareness and the advantage that is having your weapon drawn and discretely at the ready.

    Ironically, those who do excell at fast stress draw do their best with the good ol' Colt 1873... which has to be thumb-cocked for every single shot.

    Just some devil's advocate in that regard.

    Also, mastering the "crunch-tick" is something that is truly, to me, much ado about nothing.
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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 03:54:26 PM »
    Forgive me, but "crunch-tick"?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
    « Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 04:04:44 PM »
    Forgive me, but "crunch-tick"?

    Colonel Jeff Cooper described the DA/SA transition as crunch for the first part, and a quick tick for the second. He also called such autos "Crunchentickers."
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

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