Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year  (Read 38434 times)

Nightcrawler

  • WTA Secretary of Defense
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6280
  • That's what SHE said!

  • Offline
Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
« on: July 28, 2013, 10:50:31 am »
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130727/NEWS04/307270003/Testing-M9-replacement-start-next-year

Testing of M9 replacement to start next year


Staff Sgt. Aaron Webb of the 134th Security Forces Squadron fires the Beretta M9 as part of his requalification May 16, 2011, at Arnold Air Force Base, Tenn. (Staff Sgt. Scott Hollis / Air Force)



There is good news for airmen eager to replace the M9 service pistol: Final approval for a replacement program is expected at any time, which means testing and evaluation of a variety of pistols could begin early in 2014.

A three-year test and evaluation of commercial off-the-shelf contenders will determine the best pistol to replace M9s and the concealable M11s. The plan, developed in conjunction with the Army, has received the thumbs-up at the Pentagon, said Daryl Easlick, the modular handgun systems project officer.

The plan not only passed, it came through with no operational capability changes, a rare feat for any acquisition program.

That is not to say the program is without challenges. The House Armed Services Committee, in reports leading up to the June 14 passage of its 2014 defense bill, urged the Army to scrap the competition and simply upgrade the M9.

“The committee notes that the M9 pistol has been a reliable pistol with consistent and reasonable life-cycle costs,” the report said. “The committee understands that the development of a requirement to replace the M9 pistol has been slowed by budget constraints and system capability debates over the need for a replacement.

“The committee is aware that the Marine Corps has upgraded the M9 pistol with a series of product improvements that has extended the life-cycle of the program and improved the weapon’s capabilities,” the report said. “The committee believes that the Air Force secretary and the Army secretary should consider pursuing a similar product improvement program for their respective services’ M9 pistol inventory based on the Marine Corps’ experience and lessons learned. The committee expects that any product improvement program be managed and executed through a full and open competitive process.”

But improvements to the M9 won’t get the job done, Pavlick said. There are four key reasons:

■ A number of pistols can outperform the M9, which is manufactured by Beretta. There have been significant advances in trigger mechanisms in the 26 years since the M9 entered service. The Army’s Small Arms Branch at Fort Benning, Ga., put these to the test and found troops had more hits and tighter groups of hits as a result.

■ There are too many issues to overcome. The M9’s slide-mounted safety is one issue. When troops rack the slide to alleviate a jam or stovepipe, they often inadvertently engage the safety — and won’t realize this until they reacquire and squeeze the trigger. The open-slide design allows contaminants and dirt into the system.

The 9mm round also lacks the stopping power most soldiers need. And an improved M9 would need a modular grip, integrated rail, night-sight capabilities and the ability to suppress fire.

■ The numbers don’t add up. Easlick’s team did the budget drills and found that a new pistol would be less expensive to produce and maintain.

How much cheaper? Simply improving the M9 would be a “waste of time and money,” Easlick said.

For example, many newer pistols use a polymer frame. While that will not be a requirement, that frame is cheaper and more durable.

■ User feedback. Unlike the M4 carbine, which has a strong approval rating among users, the M9 consistently ranks as the weapon in which troops have the least confidence.

“They don’t want new pistols. They need new pistols,” Pavlick said.

Many troops were unhappy when the U.S. gave 22,000 Smith & Wesson Sigma 9mm pistols to Afghanistan’s National Army and National Police. The troops who delivered these weapons preferred the Sigma over the Beretta they carried — and the Sigma is the low performer in its family.

If the Sigma series is good, then Smith & Wesson’s SD series is better. And its M&P is arguably the company’s best contender for the forthcoming pistol competition. The polymer pistol has high-capacity steel magazines, a positive safety and ambidextrous controls.

And the .40-caliber variant nudged the Glock 22 and Glock 27 in a 2010 competition worth $80 million held by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Officials from the Small Arms Branch and program managers from Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., are developing an acquisition strategy of their own. They plan to have a draft request for proposals “very soon into the new year,” Pavlick said.

An industry day will follow, in which manufacturers will be able to ask questions and provide feedback. The request for proposals will likely get some minor tweaks as a result.

A three-year engineering, manufacturing and development phase for the new pistol would follow. Everything imaginable would be tested, from accuracy and dispersion to compatibility and corrosion resistance. Pistols would be tested in extreme weather and extreme combat conditions.

Tens of thousands of rounds would be fired by soldiers and analysts to ensure a service life of at least 25,000 rounds. The M9 is required to fire only 5,000 rounds. Data from Beretta shows the average reliability of all M9s to be 17,500 rounds.

“The end result will be a better pistol at a better price,” Easlick said.

* * * * * * * * *

I see this as a positive.  For one thing, the Air Force is working with the Army. If they adopt a new pistol, the Navy might get in on it, too. There's no logical reason for the services to adopt different handguns.

For another...look, I know it's hip to hate on the Beretta, but it's not a bad pistol. It's really not.  It's slick, accurate, and my issue M9 runs like a sewing machine.  It's never malfunctioned on me. 

On the other hand, the M9 wasn't a particularly new design when it was adopted. It's an old design now. DS/SA triggers have fallen out of vogue, yes, but they also require more practice to master. Most troops don't have the luxury of being given hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammo to practice with each year. The new pistol needs to be easy to shoot.

The other complaint about the Beretta is the ergonomics.  I can't reach the slide-mounted safety with my thumb (but that's okay, I never use the safety anyway). The DA trigger pull is long, and the gun is pretty big in the butt for how many rounds it holds.  There are slimmer, newer designs that hold more or larger cartridges in a smaller grip. The new pistol should have interchangeable backstraps and a shorter trigger reach.

What the article says about the safety is true as well.  Instructors insist that you NEED to slingshot the slide, because doing that is a "gross motor movement", whereas using the slide release is a "fine motor movement". If you slingshot the slide on the Beretta, there's a pretty good chance that you'll engage the safety, unless you're careful not to do so (which is surely a finer motor movement than using the slide release.)

Now, one can question these instructors grasp of human motor control physiology (I guess they just head butt the magazine release button), but sling shotting the slide is taught, but doesn't really work with the M9. Slide mounted safeties in general are a fad that have fallen by the wayside.

The Beretta is too large for a 15+1 9mm, also.

Fortunately, there are a bazillion options out there.  But there will be some limiting factors.

-The new pistol probably won't be a Glock. Glock has been behind the power curve on customizeable ergonomics for a long time now. Also, Glocks have no option for a manual safety.  The military will not adopt a pistol that lacks a manual safety.  If somehow they do, troops will go back to being required to carry with an empty chamber.

As a rule, the Army is scared of the M9.  If you have a round chambered, you're required to carry with the safety on.  Air Force regs state you carry with the safety off, ready to fire. (Which is surprising coming from Big Blue, but I'm not going to complain.) This has caused some pissed-off Army Sergeant Majors at various FOBs in the warzone.  As for myself, if I carried it, it was round chambered, hammer down, safety off. I shoot revolvers mostly and didn't want to worry about remembering to flip the safety.

-Long term cost will be as big a factor as performance. Any pistol the military buys now will still very likely be issued into the 2030s. Fortunately, most of the modern plastic autoloaders are pretty good in this regard.

-I don't know if they'll change calibers. I want to say I doubt it, but I wish they would.  If you're going to be limited to ball ammo, a .40 or .45 might be a little better than 9mm.  (Might be, but might not be. Who knows?)

-Remember, the pistol is a secondary weapon for the military. Most of the grunts on the ground don't get them. The pistol is not a crucial weapon of war; the entire military could function without them, as a matter of fact, and still accomplish all of its missions. I point this out because these discussions often tend to get very heated, and people lose sight of the big picture. On long, multi-day dismounted operations, where you're living out of a backpack, a lot of troops who are issued M9s don't even carry them. Fancy MOLLE belts aren't compatible with the waist straps of packs. Drop leg rigs get really old when you're walking up a mountain for days on end. It's one more accountable piece of equipment that you need to secure, take care of, and keep clean. It weighs as much as a couple full M16 magazines, or a smoke grenade, or a block of C4, or all kinds of things you're more likely to use.

-One could make a very good argument that for all of these reasons, the backup pistol issued to most troops should be some compact, cheap, plastic thing that can be stashed in a vest pouch and doesn't need to be worn in a proper holster. Something like a Kel-Tec P11.

My own bias would be toward an M&P with a thumb safety. It's a good gun and a very modern design. Plus, it was designed from the outset to have an optional safety. It's less of an afterthought than it was on the XD, for example.
ArizonaMOLON LABE

Retired Bomb Guy
Semi-Pro Hack Writer

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 11:07:43 am »
    I agree that the M&P would be an outstanding choice. The question is caliber. If we're sticking with ball, replacing one 9mm with another will do nothing to address the stopping power issue. Going with .40 would be better, but I have no idea how much better. .45 ACP performs pretty well in ball format, and we already have .45 pistols in service. Screw NATO, simplify stuff and go back to a common caliber for all of our handguns.

    Mike

    PS Or... dare I say it? 10mm ...

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    Nightcrawler

    • WTA Secretary of Defense
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6280
    • That's what SHE said!

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 11:22:14 am »
    Hmm.  10mm requires more training than the box of year most troops will get.  You could make an argument that pistol training should be better, but that's a completely separate issue.

    I say 10mm for USSOCOM, replacing their current mix of pistols, and .40 for everything else. Flat point, at least, if we're not going to issue expanding ammo. Something like a plated semiwadcutter.
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

    Retired Bomb Guy
    Semi-Pro Hack Writer

    strangelittleman

    • Small, Dark and Handsome
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3155

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 11:26:33 am »
      Very good article. It will interesting to see which manufacturers submit pistols and how many different models from each manufacturer. This will be fun to watch as it develops. I really liked the M9, but it (and all other DA/SA autos) does need a higher level of training for one to be truly proficient w/ it. A lot more training than the average service member receives. I think a constant trigger, striker auto makes a lot of sense for the rank and file.
      I'm sure S&W will have a couple of M&P variants submitted, if one is the manual safety version, it will need to have a more positive manual safety. The safety on the current ones is very mushy and easily flipped off, without the user knowing it. There are one or two depts. close by that issue that model, carry them on safe and the indistinct safeties are a concern.
      As for caliber, whatever gives them the confidence level they want is what they should go with, whether it's real or perceived. Personally I don't think the guy on the receiving end could really tell the difference between a M882 or a .40 ball zipping through and through their rib cage, but hey, if that's what Big Green and Big Blue decide on, then more power to them. (pun intended!)
     

    PS: As a side note, The British MOD recently announced the Gen 4 G17 as the new service pistol of British Forces. So I wouldn't count the Glock out.......
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
    Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare.
    Zol zayn azoy.

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 11:41:36 am »
    I agree that properly-powered 10mm requires more training to use effectively than the .mil is willing to provide for what is, essentially, an auxiliary weapon. .45 is probably better for that reason alone. They would probably replicate the FBI 10mm/.40 evolution, or just skip to the end and go with the .40S&W, which is a great round- in hollowpoint. Not sure how it performs in ball format.

    Mike

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8251
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 01:18:42 pm »
    Is it wrong that for tradition's sake I think it would be awesome to go back to .45 acp?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 01:37:54 pm »
    Nope. I also think that it makes sense from an ammo commonality standpoint and a terminal performance with ball ammo standpoint.

    I wonder if it is also possible for the .mil as a whole to adopt the Colt rail gun ... though I think an M&P45 would make a lot more sense from a cost, durability and maintenance perspective.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8251
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 01:54:21 pm »
    Nope. I also think that it makes sense from an ammo commonality standpoint and a terminal performance with ball ammo standpoint.

    I wonder if it is also possible for the .mil as a whole to adopt the Colt rail gun ... though I think an M&P45 would make a lot more sense from a cost, durability and maintenance perspective.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    I agree, it will most likely end up being a polymer wonder, but it is nice to envision the 1911 once again being in wide use by the military.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Langenator

    • WTA LEO
    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1894

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 02:02:18 pm »
    I found this sentence a bit overreaching:

    Quote
    And an improved M9 would need a modular grip, integrated rail, night-sight capabilities and the ability to suppress fire.

    Modular grip, fine...but the extra grip pieces should probably be issued to the armorer, not with each gun.  Rail, sure, yup.

    Night sight capabilities?  Do you mean you need to be able to put an IR laser on it (the rail takes care of that), or do they want to mount some kind of starlight/thermal scope up top somehow, like some Open division shooter's wet dream?

    The ability to suppress fire?  They're aware this is a pistol, right?  Or do they want it to have a built in fire extinguisher system?  :rotfl
    TexasFortuna Fortis Paratus

    Lupinus

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 423

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 02:05:58 pm »
    Interesting. When people pick up a Sigma and compare it to what they've been given and go "Hey, why are we giving them the good stuff? I want one!" You gots problems.

    As to the gun, it'll be interesting to see what they go with. M&P would almost certainly probably be a strong contender and probably a favorite. I also wouldn't discount Glock for it's track record, safety, simplicity, etc. As for a manual safety, I imagine they'd insist on one as they seem to always have in the past, but I suppose the remote possibility is there. Either way the M&P already has a manual thumb safety as an option. I also could have sworn I've seen where Glock did something with a manual safety for a previous bid for a military contract. If not I doubt it'd be hard for them to make that happen if they felt so inclined.

    A switch to a more effective caliber than 9mm would be great but I wouldn't hold my breath. If they actually did 40 and 45 probably have about equal odds, if someone has some foresight it'd be interesting to see what .357sig does in ball ammo compared to 40 or 45. 10mm probably has about as much chance as 22.

    I agree, it will most likely end up being a polymer wonder, but it is nice to envision the 1911 once again being in wide use by the military.
    I'm probably about to insult the JMB fans and apple pie while I'm at it....but here goes.

    I somehow don't think the answer for replacing an outdated pistol design will be to replace it with an even more outdated pistol design. Am I saying the 1911 is a bad pistol? Not at all. But it has it's quirks and it's issues, it's expensive, low capacity, the design isn't particularly simple to retrain a bunch of armors to work with, and for a service pistol the list of better options is pretty darned long.
    South Carolina

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 02:06:41 pm »
    I think the MARSOC contract will keep it in specialty use for quite some time. In truth, the gun is a fantastic weapon, but it does require a fair amount of armorer support to keep it running right. A low-maintenance gun like the Glock or M&P just makes much more sense for general-issue use, with the 1911 variants reserved for the guys that can really take advantage of the many small things that make the 1911 so superb.

    Mike

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    Nightcrawler

    • WTA Secretary of Defense
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6280
    • That's what SHE said!

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 02:13:36 pm »
    I think they mean a threaded barrel to add a sound suppressor.

    As for night sight capabilities, a lot of the M9s have a fixed front sight post that's part of the slide. You can't swap them out for tritium sights.

    More than likely, any grip pieces and whatnot will be given to the armorers.  In the Air Force, you can't even put on a foregrip or flash light yourself. CATM has to do it for you. (I just waited until after my rifle had been through its predeployment inspection before putting my light on.) I get they're worried that someone will try to modify a weapon and screw it up, but I think taking it so far as to not be allowed to attach a foregrip is a little silly.

    .40 is probably the most likely contender if there is a caliber change, since half the cops in the country are using it and most Federal agencies are too. The Coast Guard even uses it now, from what I understand. .45 is a possibility too. Anything else, probably not.

    I'm not saying they wouldn't adopt a Glock. I am saying that if they do, the Army and Marines will very likely go back to carrying chamber empty, unless you're in a high speed unit or are an MP. Even in Afghanistan, there are places where you have to carry your weapon in "condition green" (unloaded). More places mandate "condition amber" (magazine inserted, empty chamber). You're only supposed to carry "condition red" (my doesn't that sound scary...round chambered, safety on) when going outside the wire.  This is bureaucratic Big Army, though.  Smaller units with more common sense and better training may have different SOPs.

    I carried condition "red plus" I guess, since I not only had a round chambered, but the safety was off.
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

    Retired Bomb Guy
    Semi-Pro Hack Writer

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #12 on: July 28, 2013, 03:24:42 pm »
    Quote
    Interesting. When people pick up a Sigma and compare it to what they've been given and go "Hey, why are we giving them the good stuff? I want one!" You gots problems.
    To be very fair, the Sigma now is not the Sigma from a decade ago. S&W has done a lot to polish that turd, and it is actually now a reasonably acceptable weapon. The trigger is no great shakes, but it is (generally) much better than the original iterations and the thing actually runs and doesn't break itself, or so they say.

    The Sigma just cannot outlive its own stigma.

    Mike
    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    strangelittleman

    • Small, Dark and Handsome
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3155

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 04:11:32 pm »
    To be very fair, the Sigma now is not the Sigma from a decade ago. S&W has done a lot to polish that turd, and it is actually now a reasonably acceptable weapon. The trigger is no great shakes, but it is (generally) much better than the original iterations and the thing actually runs and doesn't break itself, or so they say.

    The Sigma just cannot outlive its own stigma.

    Mike
    Sigma/Stigma......That's funny!
    I had the chance to fire a S&W SD40 ( I look at them as 3rd gen Sigmas) not too long ago. I must admit I was very impressed! Great sight pic w/ a NS front and black rear, Terrific trigger very accurate and it was reasonably compact w/ it's 4" bbl. It was like shooting a G23 with superb ergos and great sights right out of the box. All that for approx.: $325-350.....Yeah, I'd recommend it to someone looking for a defensive pistol in a skinny minute! 
    « Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 04:38:13 pm by strangelittleman »
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
    Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare.
    Zol zayn azoy.

    Doug Wojtowicz

    • Clown prince
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8543
    • Fly like the wind!

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 04:33:06 pm »
    Pssst.  Pssssst!  Hey guys, ask how much the Coast Guard loves their handy little pistol!

    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22154
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 04:39:09 pm »
    Considering Beretta's Contract for new pistols... Don't be shocked if the replacement for the M9 is the M9A1.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    strangelittleman

    • Small, Dark and Handsome
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3155

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 04:40:00 pm »
    Considering Beretta's Contract for new pistols... Don't be shocked if the replacement for the M9 is the M9A1.

    Good point!!
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
    Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare.
    Zol zayn azoy.

    Lupinus

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 423

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 04:41:41 pm »
    To be very fair, the Sigma now is not the Sigma from a decade ago. S&W has done a lot to polish that turd, and it is actually now a reasonably acceptable weapon. The trigger is no great shakes, but it is (generally) much better than the original iterations and the thing actually runs and doesn't break itself, or so they say.

    The Sigma just cannot outlive its own stigma.

    Mike
    Oh I know, the new ones are pretty ice and a great bang for the buck. Having not said when, or if it did I didn't catch it, I assumed by sigma they meant sigma...sigma. Could be wrong though. Even so, for what it costs for an M9 compared to what it'd cost to issue an sd or sdve if that's what they were handing out, I think it's still pretty telling.
    South Carolina

    Lupinus

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 423

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 04:45:23 pm »
    Considering Beretta's Contract for new pistols... Don't be shocked if the replacement for the M9 is the M9A1.
    Excellent point. Course, with as long as it'd probably take to do the trials, argue, adopt, train, and issue it might not be to out there for the new contract plus to get a new sidearm coming down the pike.

    And even so and the selection and replacement was fast, it wouldn't be the first time we spend a massive amount of money to not use something.
    South Carolina

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7239
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 05:26:16 pm »
    And even so and the selection and replacement was fast, it wouldn't be the first time we spend a massive amount of money to not use something.
    Like sending brand-new cargo planes to the bone yard.  :banghead



    Kaso

    Wolf-Dragon

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 743

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 06:22:06 pm »
    Since the military wants to be able to suppress the pistols, I'd go with the FNX-45 Tactical, it gives them everything they want and and more. It gives them the same capacity the military M9's have only in .45ACP, the .45ACP is also naturally subsonic so no need for specialty ammo. Yes it's not as hard hitting as the 10mm but it's a more common caliber and a lot of our allied nations are going to the .45 or looking to go to the .45 in a few years meaning it would be more productive for the US to go .45. Granted the FNX-45 is more expensive then the M9 but in the long term it wouldn't cost as much. Also we have warehouses full of military .45 ball still which right now is only used by special forces and select other units in the military.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    RetroGrouch

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1006

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #21 on: July 28, 2013, 06:35:48 pm »
    I'd vote for the M&P in 40 or 45.  My guess is that the US military will do to this what they have done to every other "new" gun trial in the past couple of decades - test a lot, then decide nothing is "better enough" to change from what they have.
    Arizona

    Penguin

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1668

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #22 on: July 28, 2013, 07:37:22 pm »
    For some reason I thought a couple of years back there was talk of replacing the M9 with something else and tests were done and eventually the branches couldn't agree on a winner so we kept the M9. Perhaps I am way wrong on this but that is the impression I was under.

    For what it is worth I think NATO has mostly out lived it usefullness. As well while I don't like the M9 at all it isn't a bad pistol. If it has a weakness I would say it is the 9mm round it fires. If I was running the show I would go with a different caliber. I would be up for reasonable test on a large varity of choices there. In my mind though the one to beat would be the good old 45ACP. Again though if it was me I would just order some new 1911's. I doubt that will happen though as has been posted there are probably better choices out there.
    Doobie Doobie Doo...

    Omaha In June

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 491

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #23 on: July 28, 2013, 08:18:02 pm »
    I agree that a polymer pistol is probably the best way to go, a striker fired system would help the learning curve, and the M&P being a good front runner. It's more ergonomic than the Glock. The safety is there (and good be modified to be more positive.)

    I'd also look for FN to throw their hat in to the ring. Their FNS (Striker) and FNX (DA/SA hammer) are both solid poly platforms. The price point is great for what you get. $649 retail gets you three mags, fully ambi frame, interchangeable backstraps, and night sights. The FNS has a positive frame safety and the FNX has a safety/decocker.
    As far as caliber, I think 9mm will prevail, but I'd love to see .45 ACP again. I think both would be easier to train vs other calibers .40 included. Plus 230 gr hardball has laid low many a soul over the last 100+ years.
    If .mil decides on .45, the FNX-45 is a heavy contender. It's hammer fired, and w/ 14 round mags, it's just as effective or more as the M9. It's retail price is only $749 w/ night sights. The Tac model is more but adds the threaded barrel, updated trigger group, high sights, and RMR scope mount. This model would be overkill for regular troops but great for snake eaters.

    Paul



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Indiana"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
    If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

    A battalion commander of the 23rd Regiment 2nd Infantry Division reported during Operation Cobra, the long awaited breakout from St. Lo (July 1944):

    "I have no water, I have no chow, I have no batteries for my radio, I have no communication. My men are dead dog tired. I repeat, my men are dead dog tired. I have been given an order to attack. I am about to comply with this order. End of message."

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22154
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Testing of M9 replacement to start next year
    « Reply #24 on: July 28, 2013, 10:42:47 pm »
    Of course FN is going to through their hat into the ring.
    When the US Army put out there "Request for Proposal" a few years ago... Even Taurus through their hat into the ring.  Taurus! 
    Could you imagine if Taurus WON a Contract?  Good hell.
    The FN is a high favorite in the DOD's Inner Sanctum.  Glock has no chance as they've written the rules before to pretty much exclude Glock.  S&W has chance.
    But let's be realistic.  There are only 3 likely Companies that can do it, have guns proven well enough and the capacity to fulfill the contract.
    Beretta, SIG, and FN.  HK is possible but not as likely.   Each of these 3 companies can roll out 2 or 3 competitive options each depending on requirements.
    I'd really like to see those requirements specify 10mm or 9x23mm.  Give our Boys some real punch.  And if we could get the Military to actually roll out a real training program for handguns - that would be fantastic.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.