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Author Topic: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols  (Read 1588 times)

dougwg

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 11:40:06 AM »
Quote from: Coronach on November 09, 2012, 12:20:36 PM
Also, a good bellwether for an idea's ultimate utility is whether or not the guys that go in harm's way will actually use it. Does anyone in the military or LE use this? Not that I have heard.

Now this is hardly a perfect indicator, especially since that same group can be rather conservative (reasonably so, IMHO), but it is a very good one.

Mike

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I just worked up a couple slides for some guys that don't exist that work for an agency that doesn't exist either....

They are the way of the future.
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Kaso

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 12:08:21 PM »
Quote from: dougwg on November 10, 2012, 11:36:27 AM
Just because you can't fathom work arounds for issues that may arise you discount gear all together.
Hey, play nice!  Most of the regular members here view each other as friends.  You are most welcome to participate, but don't pick on my friends.  >:(



Kaso
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JesseL

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2012, 12:44:44 PM »
Quote from: dougwg on November 10, 2012, 11:36:27 AM
Easy day! Both eyes open and super impose dot over target.
I can tell you've never given them (pistol optics) a fair shake.
You're post is "Internet Bench Racing" at it's best.

Just because you can't fathom work arounds for issues that may arise you discount gear all together.

Pistol mounted optic for combat pistols are the way of the future.

How about a rejoinder that actually addresses the points and questions Coronoach raised instead of a smarmy dismissal that's no better than "internet Bench Racing"?

Quote from: dougwg on November 10, 2012, 11:40:06 AM
I just worked up a couple slides for some guys that don't exist that work for an agency that doesn't exist either....

They are the way of the future.

And I'm really not going to be tolerant of any more of this kind of bulls___. Grow up or find another forum.
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seanp

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 02:16:20 PM »
Quote from: dougwg on November 10, 2012, 11:40:06 AM
I just worked up a couple slides for some guys that don't exist that work for an agency that doesn't exist either....

They are the way of the future.

What's the way of the future?  Non-existent people?

Funny thing I've noticed over the years is that non-existent people and non-existent agencies are just that: non-existent.  Probably paid with money that doesn't exist too...

Anyway, leaving the BS aside, anyone that wears glasses can immediately understand Coronach's concern, and it's a valid one.

My personal thought is that in general it's not going to be a deal breaker as there are ways that fogging can be overcome, but under some circumstances, it could be a significant one.
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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2012, 02:40:57 PM »
If the optic is occluded is there still a dot to see? The RDSes I have used there is not. I'm familar with the OEG concept, but you still need a viable, visible dot. You can also alleviate the problem via coatings, but as was said, anyone who has worn glasses can relate that this is a problem, and if the conditions are right condensation will appear on almost anything.

As I said earlier, I'm not opposed to the idea- indeed, I can see the advantages, and I favor the RDS on rifles. But the failure mode must be addressed first.

Mike

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RetroGrouch

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 11:27:28 PM »
Unless the LED itself fogs, you still have a red dot.  And sice the proper way to use a red dot is with both eyes open and focusing on the target, you still have the red dot superimposed on the target, co-witnessed with the irons, just like on a rifle.


Who likes and buys these?  Guys like me who can't focus on a front sight unless I am wearing some sort of corrective shooting glasses.  Like that would happen in an HD / SD shooting.  I also have a CT laser on a serious use gun, for the same reasons as a red dot.  It is a more mature tech now, but very similar criticisms were leveled against lasers.  Even red dots on rifles were derided until the military went with them, then they were suddenly the best thing since evah.
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Tanner

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2012, 12:04:04 PM »
My main concern would be how quickly the dot brightness could automatically adjust from total blackness to a bright environment.  In a rifle engagement, there generally is time to push a button once or twice to get it where you want it, with a defensive handgun there probably isn't.

I have read up on it a bit and can see that the potential there, but I don't think the technology is quite there yet.  I'm glad there are people out there wringing them out though, makes for interesting reading...
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Outbreak

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2012, 12:35:11 PM »
TL;DR

I would never put one on a carry gun. Reliability, durability, comfort are all factors.

For competition and instruction, I see them as great tools. They require a metric fecal ton of practice to draw and get a sight picture without doing the "C-more stare." But for slow-fire, learning the fundamentals they allow even an inexperienced shooter to see where the dot goes as the shot breaks. It also allows the new shooter to concentrate on the other parts of shooting without worrying about sight alignment. That can come later.

In competition, once you've mastered the use of a dot, it's incredibly fast. It's legal in IPSC/USPSA Open Division, but [I'm told] not IDPA. Also legal in Steel Challenge (branch of IPSC) and most, if not all 3-gun competitions in Open Division.
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RetroGrouch

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2012, 10:44:26 PM »
I took my wife shooting for the first time ever using a red dot mounted on a handgun, and had her shooting almost as we'll as I do with the same gun with a few magazines.  It doesn't take a lot of training.  The biggest concern I have is reliability, as I have had a few problems with the Burris Fastfires and the micro red dots that preceded them.
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