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Author Topic: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols  (Read 3177 times)

HiVelSword

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S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« on: November 08, 2012, 01:50:09 PM »
The FNP .45 Tactical was the first. S&W is following suit nicely. My prediction? We'll see the same on XDm's and eventually Glock's.

I want the .40 S&W 5" so that I can stick a 6" 357 SIG barrel in it. ;)

http://westernshootingjournal.com/2012/11/the-mp-core-and-concealed-carry-optics/

To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen


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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 02:17:31 PM »
Meh.

I am a heathen in this regard, I guess. To me, all pistols are carry pistols, and therefor all pistols are defensive pistols, and therefor no pistols shall have optics, certainly not optics that cannot be detached immediately in case of problems.

BTW, the most common "problem" that I can see is condensation. I am outside in the cold. I come inside, and end up having to draw my gun. If the optic is covered in condensation, which probably will happen, I am in a metric crap-ton of trouble. Fancy coatings notwithstanding, at least one author experienced this issue when doing a writeup on RDSes for handguns in one of the gun mags...SWAT, I think? He went on to gush about the speed and utility of the setup, despite freely admitting that his entire sighting system was 100% useless due to the weather during a drill. I call this a predictable problem, and one that I will avoid by keeping the RDS off of my gun.

I know that Gabe Suarez & Cmpany, along with many others, are all ate up with the idea of RDSes on pistols. I concede that they are faster. I refuse to believe that they are reliable enough, given the issues with batteries, glass, switches, mud, blood, condensation, water, impact, etc etc etc.

Yes, the same can be said of rifle optics. The difference is that the rifle optic can be ejected, and the rifle is carried in your hand when at the ready, and you can check the status of the optic at any time, so your chances of being surprised with a dead or occluded optic is smaller. Handguns ride in holsters until needed, and will not be checked as often, given their role as a defensive weapon. If you have a rifle in hand, you anticipate using it, and you probably have an opportunity before setting out to check status. This is not the case with carry handguns. Sure, you can check them when you holster them, but how many hours ago was that?

Now, for range and competition guns? Have at it.

Mike
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Evil Jim

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 02:52:28 PM »
Sorry... low profile blade sights get banged up, not about to put an optic on a carry pistol.


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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 03:15:39 PM »
Well, it IS better than a curler hot glued to the slide ...

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 03:28:43 PM »
I see those iron sights and think "Clearance for a suppressor."
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HiVelSword

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 03:37:02 PM »
I currently carry 6 different pistols and one revolver. I will have optics on a couple of them someday, not all. I'm not one of those folks that will be putting optics on all his pistols. Besides, I can't even afford all of those RMR's anyway!!!

And now that I have a revolver, those are usually my cold weather go-to's. Won't bother me at all that they won't have an electronic sight on them. I say "them" because I'm jonesing for a new .44...
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

ronlarimer

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 09:22:55 PM »
I have written about RMR's a lot lately and I am really excite about the idea, but as I said in today's post... I think Smith and Wesson missed the marketing on this one.

Slide mounted optics aren't competition guns (at least now).  If you are running an optic in USPSA you are better off with a frame mounted unit. In IDPA they aren't legal at all (at least now).  So the only market for these guns is either the self-defense or duty gun.

Targeting it as Competition Optics Ready Equipment misses the market.

Still want one though... just on a Glock 19.
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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 12:02:08 AM »
See, I think they're bad ideas for defensive guns, and their only good use is in plinking or competition. If they are illegal in organized competition, I'm really scratching my head as to why they are growing in popularity.

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Deathrider1579

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 12:11:52 AM »
See, I think they're bad ideas for defensive guns, and their only good use is in plinking or competition. If they are illegal in organized competition, I'm really scratching my head as to why they are growing in popularity.

Mike

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I was initially pretty against optics on pistols, but I'm warming up to the idea. I still think they need to be smaller than they are currently but I'm not sure how thats possible.
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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 12:34:30 AM »
LOL.

Nice picture, one of my fave internet rejoinders.

My issue is mostly with the possiblity of the sight being occluded. I mean, the dot vanishes, big deal. Use your irons. If the glass clouds over, or gets covered with mud or blood, what do you do? Really, what's the recourse? And the glass can cloud simply from going from a cold environment into a warmer, humid one.

Bad idea. Bad, bad, bad idea.

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GeorgeHill

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 12:49:57 AM »
I have a hard time getting them up on target with speed.  Accuracy is there, but it takes me more time to find that dot in the window.
I am much faster with just irons... but not quite as accurate.  Oh, on target, still in the 10 ring, but not as pretty tight as with a optical gunsite.  I'd rather have the speed.
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mnw42

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 01:28:02 AM »
Quote
Yes, the same can be said of rifle optics. The difference is that the rifle optic can be ejected, and the rifle is carried in your hand when at the ready, and you can check the status of the optic at any time,

I'd also say that serious use rifle optics are far more robust and also take less abuse.  I just don't see anything on the market that will reliably take the abuse of being thrashed around like that or being smacked into things riding on your hip.

It also adds a not significant amount of bulk.

The problem with that is that the smaller optic will necessarily smaller battery and batteries tend to die at the most inopportune time.  Now it is a major maintenance item and to make sure you a have a new battery in it at regular internals.  You'll also have to remember to turn it on when you stick it in the night stand/put it on and turn it off when you get home/wake up.

I've shot race guns and target guns with RMRs and I too found the dot to be slower to acquire.  Once I had it was easier to be accurate and I was a bit faster transitioning between targets.  I don't see those advantages out-weighing my time on target or time to first shot.

You could make an argument that they would be great on a dedicated HD gun.  It would now be subject to house hold dust, or being slammed around in a drawer.  Additionally, my carry guns are also HD guns since they are the ones I am most familiar with so those issues come back into play.
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HiVelSword

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 09:41:55 AM »
I don’t fully understand the “need to find the dot” argument. Perhaps mainly because I’ve never tried a pistol with an electronic sight mounted on the slide. But what I DO know is that when I draw my pistol with my eyes closed and point it at a target and then open my eyes my sights are aligned. This is why I don’t like unmodified Glocks. You have to train to turn your wrists down so that the front sight isn’t above the rear. But you stop turning your wrists when you see the sights aligned. Can’t really do that with your eyes closed. But I digress.

When I have a laser on a pistol I sight it in first so that it sits just above the front sight. Wouldn’t I do pretty much the same with an electronic sight? So if I draw and my sights are aligned and have practiced at speed to get the flash sight picture as Ayoob teaches, why would it be so difficult to “find the dot”?
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

HiVelSword

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 09:50:12 AM »
Need to add that turning your wrist slightly is not a big deal when shooting a Glock. In fact, I enjoy shooting my friend's G17 and his wifes G19. And even if your eyes are closed and you open them and the front sight is just a tad below the rear it's also not a big deal either. My point is I REALLY like guns that have sights locked in when I grip them naturally. Others just retrain. So no, that wasn't me bashing Glocks. Just my own personal experience and opinion.
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen


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Deathrider1579

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 11:52:39 AM »

I think the right way to do optics on handguns is some sort of science fiction at this point, some kind of holographic projection so that if it gets borked it just goes away and your back to normal handgun iron sight operation. (Could just be too much Babylon 5 as a kid too)

But at this point I would generally agree that optics ready hand guns are answers to questions very few people are asking.
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HiVelSword

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 11:59:03 AM »
If no one was really asking then why would some gunsmiths like Bowie Tactical and AETI be offering the services? Why is S&W unveiling a line of optic ready pistols? Could be a gamble. I guess we'll see how well they sell.

To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »
As to why it got started, I'm not sure. As to why it continues, two thoughts:

1. Tactical stuff is faddish. This is developing into a current fad.

2. The advantages are immediate and obvious. The disadvantages are less so. The rate of actual defensive usage is so vanishingly small that I doubt that anyone has even used an RDS-handgun in anger yet. Therefore, the chance that someone has had a real-deal RDS-handgun failure is about 0%. The only way to experience it is to have a failure at the range, and how many people actually train in the conditions that will create the failure (mud, blood, condensation)? Probably about .01%.

I'm not opposed to the idea. I just want to be satisfied as to the failure drill for your screen going impenetrably cloudy and blocking both the dot and your irons. Have Bowie et al laid this out yet?

Mike

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« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 12:26:34 PM by Coronach »
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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 12:20:36 PM »
Also, a good bellwether for an idea's ultimate utility is whether or not the guys that go in harm's way will actually use it. Does anyone in the military or LE use this? Not that I have heard.

Now this is hardly a perfect indicator, especially since that same group can be rather conservative (reasonably so, IMHO), but it is a very good one.

Mike

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 12:35:24 PM »
wuts the failure drill for dropping iron sights face first into muck?

JesseL

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 12:42:40 PM »
wuts the failure drill for dropping iron sights face first into muck?

Wipe them off as best you can. You just have to be able to see them, not see through them.
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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2012, 12:56:22 PM »
Mmmm...

I think that optics on carry pistols is pretty much an inevitability.

Take a look at a G22 set up with a Trijicon RMR and co-witnessed suppressor height sights (you could do the same thing to the M&P).



It's too bulky for concealed carry, maybe - guys who already carry hand cannons will debate that - but for an open carry service weapon?  Not hardly.  Especially once holsters start being designed for it.
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Coronach

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2012, 01:25:58 PM »
wuts the failure drill for dropping iron sights face first into muck?
As Jesse said, wipe them off. What is worth thinking about is that "face first in muck" is a failure mode that will affect both the RDS and the irons, but will affect the irons less. Atmospheric conditions causing rapid condensation is a failure mode that will only affect the RDS, and is much more common than face first in the muck. For example, as a LE officer hardly a week goes by in the winter when I have not been outside of a house for 10 minutes waiting to get inside, and when inside I'm faced with "Government Heat" (tropical environment created by the occupants keeping everthing at 90* with the windows open to regulate the temperature,  a phenomenon caused by the taxpayer paying the heating bill, not the resident). I can and have seen glasses and rifle RDSes fog over promptly under such conditions. Never seen an iron sight do it.

Mike
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JesseL

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2012, 01:42:03 PM »
Beyond the issues of muck or condensation, I have tons of lint and dust constantly collecting on every concave surface of the pistol I carry all day every day. I try to blow it off with compressed air regularly just to keep it tidy, but it doesn't really affect function.

If I had that collecting on the glass of an optical sight though, it could be a serious problem after a while.
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HiVelSword

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2012, 02:11:17 PM »
I'd be using a can of compressed air daily if I carried a pistol with an optic. Which someday I will. No more than two. A minority in my carry rotation. Expecially since I plan on buying three more handguns next year. One a revolver. And all three will go into my carry rotation.

Because I love too many guns.  :banghead
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

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Re: S&W M&P C.O.R.E. pistols
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 11:36:27 AM »
LOL.

Nice picture, one of my fave internet rejoinders.

My issue is mostly with the possiblity of the sight being occluded. I mean, the dot vanishes, big deal. Use your irons. If the glass clouds over, or gets covered with mud or blood, what do you do? Really, what's the recourse? And the glass can cloud simply from going from a cold environment into a warmer, humid one.

Bad idea. Bad, bad, bad idea.

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Easy day! Both eyes open and super impose dot over target.
I can tell you've never given them (pistol optics) a fair shake.
You're post is "Internet Bench Racing" at it's best.

Just because you can't fathom work arounds for issues that may arise you discount gear all together.

Pistol mounted optic for combat pistols are the way of the future.
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