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Author Topic: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?  (Read 3225 times)

MTK20

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Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2017, 08:18:18 PM »
All things being equal? 
Bigger bullets make bigger holes.  The point of a pistol bullet is to make a hole.  The bigger the hole, the better the hole. And if that hole transits through a vital, even better yet.

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So, uh, I should get a .45 1911, then yeah?  ;)

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Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Robinson

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #26 on: May 05, 2017, 11:28:16 PM »
    Nope, 9mm 1911s aren't dumb at all.  Over the last couple years I've converted entirely from .45 to 9mm 1911s -- for carry, HD, and range practice.  I had some really nice .45s and it's not that I don't think .45ACP is a good cartridge.  The 9mm just makes a lot more sense for my use now.

    There are not many downsides to the 9mm, especially with modern expanding ammunition.  More rounds, less recoil, less noise (especially with subsonic rounds), and hollow points that have proven to be very effective performers based on vetted testing protocols.

    A few 1911 manufacturers have started placing more emphasis on 9mm guns so there are good choices available.  I personally would suggest Colt, Dan Wesson, or Wilson Combat.
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    Mikee5star

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #27 on: May 06, 2017, 01:04:56 AM »
    I was fondling/drooling over one of Rock Island .22tcm/9mm double stacks yesterday.  I think the grips are a bit thicker than my Para's, but other wise very similar feel in the hand.  I would rather not have the temptation of a new caliber, though.  Finish looked nice and even.  Trigger had a bit of mush to it, but so much nicer than the M&P I had fondled right before.  But it was not worth the asking price to me right now.  Money is still tight so a new gun has to be a really good deal or pull on all the heart strings.

    http://armscor.com/firearms/tcm-series/tcm-rock-standard-ms-hc-combo-22tcm-9mm/

    This one tempts me a lot more than any single stack.  I just like the feel of the double stacks better than a standard 1911.  The exception is the bob tail versions.  That is all time favorite grip/frame feel in a bottom feeder.
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #28 on: May 06, 2017, 07:35:32 AM »
    Our Member "Evil Jim" has the .22TCM / 9mm from Rock Island, and he is quite smitten with it.  He's made some glowing comments about it.
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    Deer Hunter

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #29 on: May 06, 2017, 01:06:51 PM »
    Yes, because the Hi Power exists.
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #30 on: May 06, 2017, 01:43:14 PM »
    My 1911 was originally a 38 super, and I quite enjoy it. It now lives as a 9x23, but that is pretty close to the same thing.

    The best thing about a 9x23/38 super 1911 is the ability to switch to 9mm with just a spring and barrel swap.

    I am also seriously looking at getting a 22TCM barrel for the sheer fun of it and maybe popping some varmints with it.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #31 on: May 06, 2017, 07:41:48 PM »
    Yeah, gotta love a .357 Magnum on a 1911 platform.  The 1st time I handled on was at the Hanau Gun Club, in Hanau, Germany, and fell immediately in love with it.  Haven't had an opportunity to fire one yet, but I'm bound and determined, I'm gonna own one some day.

    They do have other calibers, by the way.  Here's their website:  http://www.coonaninc.com/  Take a look, but grab a napkin or something to keep the drool off of your keyboard.
    I've been wanting a Coonan for as long as I've known about them.  I will have one of each some day.  On the list for the 10mm.

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    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    coelacanth

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #32 on: May 07, 2017, 02:03:52 AM »
    Nothing wrong with the idea at all.  I have a compact STI in 9mm and its a fine pistol - perhaps even a little more controllable on follow up shots than my lightweight Commander sized pistol in .45 ACP.   Either one will serve well when the chips are down.  The 1911 design lends itself to being easily carried and most users find it unsurpassed in first shot hit probability.   

    I am one of those "throwbacks" that tends to prefer the 1911 A1 style to just about any other.  Arched mainspring housing, GI thumb safety, short trigger and all.  It could use a better set of sights but I still think it is probably the best mass produced, pure combat pistol ever made.

    The .38 Super is a fine cartridge and very reliable in the 1911.   In fact, the immediate predecessor to the 1911 pistol, the 1903 Colt was originally chambered for the .38 Automatic, or ACP which is a slightly shorter, weaker version of the .38 super.  A hot loaded .38 Super with 124  grain  bullets is equivalent to a 9mm +P+ and is breathing pretty hard on the heels of the .357 magnum out of a 4" barreled revolver.

     Out of a full sized 1911 it shoots flat and hits hard.  Its only drawback seems to be that it is a bit more expensive to shoot if you don't reload. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    RMc

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #33 on: May 07, 2017, 06:22:34 PM »
    The .38 Super is a higher pressure version of the .38 ACP, the cartridge dimensions are the same.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #34 on: May 07, 2017, 06:31:27 PM »
    Nothing wrong with the idea at all.  I have a compact STI in 9mm and its a fine pistol - perhaps even a little more controllable on follow up shots than my lightweight Commander sized pistol in .45 ACP.   Either one will serve well when the chips are down.  The 1911 design lends itself to being easily carried and most users find it unsurpassed in first shot hit probability.   

    I am one of those "throwbacks" that tends to prefer the 1911 A1 style to just about any other.  Arched mainspring housing, GI thumb safety, short trigger and all.  It could use a better set of sights but I still think it is probably the best mass produced, pure combat pistol ever made.

    The .38 Super is a fine cartridge and very reliable in the 1911.   In fact, the immediate predecessor to the 1911 pistol, the 1903 Colt was originally chambered for the .38 Automatic, or ACP which is a slightly shorter, weaker version of the .38 super.  A hot loaded .38 Super with 124  grain  bullets is equivalent to a 9mm +P+ and is breathing pretty hard on the heels of the .357 magnum out of a 4" barreled revolver.

     Out of a full sized 1911 it shoots flat and hits hard.  Its only drawback seems to be that it is a bit more expensive to shoot if you don't reload. 

    So if I bought it and only carried 9mm +p+'s I would essentially have the .38 super I want  :hmm.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    LowKey

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #35 on: May 07, 2017, 10:26:22 PM »
    So if I bought it and only carried 9mm +p+'s I would essentially have the .38 super I want  :hmm.
    Just to sweeten the pot, as it were, I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to swap back and forth between 9mm and 38 super in the same 1911.
    I could be completely wrong about that, but I really suspect it wouldn't be difficult. 

    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #36 on: May 07, 2017, 10:33:45 PM »
    Just to sweeten the pot, as it were, I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to swap back and forth between 9mm and 38 super in the same 1911.
    I could be completely wrong about that, but I really suspect it wouldn't be difficult.

    I've heard that 1911's aren't as interchangeable as other platforms. So who knows?  :shrug
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #37 on: May 07, 2017, 10:37:54 PM »
    So if I bought it and only carried 9mm +p+'s I would essentially have the .38 super I want  :hmm.


    Maybe.  :hmm   The .38 Super is a round designed to run in the pistol as it was originally designed and it does so very well.  In fact, I never had a single malfunction in my .38 Super.  The STI compact 9mm has hiccuped a couple of times with 115 grain WWB but does well with 124 grain stuff.  Each pistol is a law unto itself.  I'm not saying that you can't get combat reliability from a 9mm 1911 but if it is a more difficult problem as a rule.   In a 1911 style pistol a 4" barrel is just about the minimum you can have and expect flawless reliability even from a .45 ACP or a .38 Super.   The timing and the tolerances begin to work against each other when you get smaller than that and as a result the pistols tend to be finicky about ammo and magazines.  Not a problem if you are aware of it and plan accordingly but it is something you need to account for if you intend to stake your life on its reliability. 
    Just to sweeten the pot, as it were, I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to swap back and forth between 9mm and 38 super in the same 1911.
    I could be completely wrong about that, but I really suspect it wouldn't be difficult. 

    As for swapping?  Yes, it can be done but it might not be as cut and dried as you think.  Obviously different barrels and magazines would be required but you may also end up needing different extractors, springs and firing pins and stops.   :shrug   A journeyman 1911 gunsmith would be able to give you more detailed info as well as the whys and wherefores but it would not be a cheap conversion IMO.  Probably better to commit to one cartridge and stay with it in terms of the complexity and expense.   
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #38 on: May 07, 2017, 10:46:13 PM »
    I always wondered about so called conversion "kits."  Something just didn't seem kosher, like an itch you can't reach.  And with the plethora of weapons/calibers available, I couldn't see a reason for them.

    Steve, you just hit that itch.  :thumbup1
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    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #39 on: May 07, 2017, 10:48:07 PM »

    Maybe.  :hmm   The .38 Super is a round designed to run in the pistol as it was originally designed and it does so very well.  In fact, I never had a single malfunction in my .38 Super.  The STI compact 9mm has hiccuped a couple of times with 115 grain WWB but does well with 124 grain stuff.  Each pistol is a law unto itself.  I'm not saying that you can't get combat reliability from a 9mm 1911 but if it is a more difficult problem as a rule.   In a 1911 style pistol a 4" barrel is just about the minimum you can have and expect flawless reliability even from a .45 ACP or a .38 Super.   The timing and the tolerances begin to work against each other when you get smaller than that and as a result the pistols tend to be finicky about ammo and magazines.  Not a problem if you are aware of it and plan accordingly but it is something you need to account for if you intend to stake your life on its reliability.

    When I do get a 1911, I still think it will probably in .45. I have pretty much settled on the Ruger lightweight commander, so no worries on the 4 inch barrel.

    As far as handguns go, the new model 66 is right in front of the 1911.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Roper1911

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 10:32:58 PM »
    I'm selling my colt for A TCM doublestack. it was a tie between a beater police Sig P229 and a new FS-HC TCM
    the RIA won because it just uses Para P18 mags and has 17 round capacity.
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #41 on: May 12, 2017, 09:51:18 PM »
    The only conversions that I've ever seen that worked as intended were the 1911 .22LR conversions.  Had a Colt .22 Ace, once upon a time, and it worked pretty well.  Right now I have a Kimber .22 conversion that seems to have found a permanent home on one of my Custom II Kimbers.  It's accurate, pretty reliable (it's really fond of Federal Auto-Match ammo, haven't had a glitch in over 500 rounds) and the grandkids love it, because they can shoot the "same" gun as the adults are using.

    Going from 9mm to .38 Super opens a huge can of worms, since it requires a different ejector, a different extractor, and a different recoil spring.  If you're just changing top ends, it only needs a "more flexible" ejector, but I've never seen a 9mm-to-.38 Super conversion that worked with any degree of reliability.  Didn't spend enough time with it to figure out if it needed extractor tweaking, or ejector tweaking.  Was a customer's gun, and it went to someone more knowledgeable than I am.  (He didn't have much luck with it either.)
    If I wanted a 1911 in 9mm (or .38 Super) I'd buy one that was already set up for that. 
    Just my $.02.  YMMV, IRDDU, other caveats as required.
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #43 on: May 13, 2017, 08:19:59 PM »
    Yes.    Unless it is a screaming deal on something designed for 9mm in the first place, like a Star. .

    It is a smaller cartridge, the only advantage is to allow either a smaller gun, or more capacity.
    Why on earth sacrifice BOTH advantages?

    If you want a full size service pistol in 9mm, hammer fired, with a good trigger pull and ergonomics, snap out of it and get a CZ75 or a BHP. :D

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #44 on: May 13, 2017, 09:50:14 PM »
    Yes.    Unless it is a screaming deal on something designed for 9mm in the first place, like a Star. .

    It is a smaller cartridge, the only advantage is to allow either a smaller gun, or more capacity.
    Why on earth sacrifice BOTH advantages?

    If you want a full size service pistol in 9mm, hammer fired, with a good trigger pull and ergonomics, snap out of it and get a CZ75 or a BHP. :D
    a single stack 9mm 1911 is incredibly controllable, especially if you're moving down from a .45 ACP.
    if you're coming from a .45 platform it's cheaper to shoot, so you'll shoot more. and it's got the same manual of arms, so you don't have to worry about anything like safeties toggling in different directions.
    also- a full sized 9mm 1911 single stack is slim as a regular 1911, and slimmer then both the CZ and BHP. meaning if you want to conceal it it'll conceal easier.

    and finally- the rule of cool.
    I like 1911's. I think they're are cool. I consider them *my* platform. is it the best gun? not for every one. but for me? I have thousands of round down range in .45 ACP. I've spent probably $1500 in ammo alone and I wish I had been able to shoot more.
    given that you can sometimes find 9mm for less then half of .45 prices? I don't regret buying my 9mm single stack 1911 at all. (I did get the single stack. I was able to get one for about $100 less then the double stack I was looking at. review coming soon.) I'll be able to afford to shoot a whole hell of a lot more. will I carry the 9mm from time to time?
    Yeah. frankly it's a nicer gun then my GI. but I'll be investing in a more carry oriented 10mm 1911 (because I can.) configured identically to my new 9mm (and TCM, and maybe .38 super as well. it'll fit the TCM frame just fine) so I have a higher power carry gun then even .45 ACP.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    exiledtoIA

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #45 on: May 16, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »
    The very reason I don't own a Glock, I can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside.  Though isn't the BHP similar in ergo, to the 1911?  Wasn't it the predecessor to the 1911?


    Freeman, nope other way around.  !911 came out in 1911.  BHP came out in 1935 hence it's other name. "GP-35"
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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #46 on: May 16, 2017, 04:24:31 PM »
    Llama 9mm 1911's and Star Model B's lasted until the Spanish company imploded.

    The Springfield Armory EMP-4 would be nice, the original 3 incher feels nice, but I ain't interested in new Springers since their Illinois law fiasco.
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    tokugawa

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #47 on: May 16, 2017, 06:41:01 PM »
    Star model B' are much better guns than commonly thought.  Never bought one but was tempted as a nice piece could be had very inexpensively.

    katmandoo

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #48 on: May 18, 2017, 08:29:49 AM »
    Star model B' are much better guns than commonly thought.  Never bought one but was tempted as a nice piece could be had very inexpensively.
    I have 2 super B's, great shooters.  They like to bite though

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    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    coelacanth

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #49 on: May 19, 2017, 12:06:45 AM »
    Worst thing about the Spanish guns these days is parts availability.  Its beginning to get problematic.   :hmm
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

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