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Author Topic: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?  (Read 3207 times)

MTK20

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Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
« on: May 05, 2017, 11:33:47 AM »
For someone who shoots primarily 9mm in an auto, but would like to own a 1911 some day, is there any reason to pick a 9mm 1911 over the classic .45? I am of course talking about a traditional single stack commander sized 1911. Yes it would be adding a new calibre to the stable, but while the 9mm is effective in ending threats, the .45 may be even more capable. Would I not be selling myself short ballistically for gaining those 2 extra rounds of 9mm? After all, if I was going to pick a gun this size in 9mm, why not just stick with my Glock or Sig? Also what of reliability? isn't the original design more reliable with the .45?



Sound off 9mm advocates and 1911 traditionalists. Are commander sized 1911's chambered in 9mm parabellum forward thinking, or are they dumb as hell for concealed carry?
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 12:43:42 PM »
    Not dumb at all.  Lots of reasons to get a 9mm 1911.  Cheaper practice ammo and less recoil come immediately to mind.

    38 Super is also a strong choice as you keep the extra rounds but get a ballistics upgrade.
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    LowKey

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 02:00:28 PM »
    Not dumb. 
    .45 ACP is not the only caliber production 1911s were manufactured in for non-range use.
    IIRC 1911s in .38 Super were popular in Latin America back in the day, the round still has a following in competition shooting today, and is in no terms anemic.    Not that far off from 9mm in terms of power. 
    So no, a 1911 single stack in 9mm isn't dumb at all.

    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 02:23:35 PM »
    I would love a 1911 in .38 super, but I thought that .38 super was significantly more powerful than either 9mm or .45.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #4 on: May 05, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »
    Why not use a 1911 style built around the 9mm to begin with:

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    sarge712

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #5 on: May 05, 2017, 02:59:04 PM »
    Not dumb at all. I'd love a 1911 in 9mm.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #6 on: May 05, 2017, 03:34:03 PM »
    Not at all dumb.  Regardless of caliber, the 1911 platform is proven. 106 years of history, and modern technological improvements, make for a formidable combination.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 04:02:22 PM »

    1911's are Smart. 
    Very fast first round hits, made with great accuracy.  The First Shot is the most important Shot.
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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #8 on: May 05, 2017, 05:21:08 PM »
    Not that far off from 9mm in terms of power. 

    I would love a 1911 in .38 super, but I thought that .38 super was significantly more powerful than either 9mm or .45.

    The 38 Super Auto modern round is more powerful in terms of muzzle energy than the 9mm or the 45 APC standard loads.  A typical 130grain load delivers just shy of 500 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, well over standard pressure 45 ACP or 9mm Luger.  9mm +P will equal the muzzle energy, but using lighter 115 gr bullets that have a lower sectional density.  The 45 ACP +p will also match the energy in a 200 grain bullet, but again the sectional density of that bullet is lower.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #9 on: May 05, 2017, 05:26:36 PM »
    The 38 Super Auto modern round is more powerful in terms of muzzle energy than the 9mm or the 45 APC standard loads.  A typical 130grain load delivers just shy of 500 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, well over standard pressure 45 ACP or 9mm Luger.  9mm +P will equal the muzzle energy, but using lighter 115 gr bullets that have a lower sectional density.  The 45 ACP +p will also match the energy in a 200 grain bullet, but again the sectional density of that bullet is lower.

    Please explain.  How is a 200 gr. .45 in. bullet, lower in sectional density than a .357 in. 130 gr. bullet?  I'm not a ballistician, but that right there makes no sense.  Or am I missing something?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #10 on: May 05, 2017, 05:37:01 PM »
    Please explain.  How is a 200 gr. .45 in. bullet, lower in sectional density than a .357 in. 130 gr. bullet?  I'm not a ballistician, but that right there makes no sense.  Or am I missing something?

    Sectional density of 0.140 with a bullet weight of 200 and diameter of .451".


    Sectional density of 0.147 with a bullet weight of 130 and diameter of .356".


    Sectional density of 0.146 with a bullet weight of 130 and diameter of .357".


    Sectional density is the ratio of mass to area.  The 200 grain 45 ACP looses because it is more bigger in diameter than it is more heavier in weight.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #11 on: May 05, 2017, 05:40:31 PM »
    Me and math  :banghead

    But still, 70 gr, and .093 in. difference.   :shrug

    Guess I'll just have to take your word for it.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #12 on: May 05, 2017, 05:46:18 PM »
    I am not saying a 200 grain 45 ACP +p won't sting just a bit.

    But, all else equal, like speed, bullet construction, target medium, the bullet with the higher SD will penetrate further.  And the 38 super 130 grain has 220 fps of speed on the 200 grain 45 ACP +p.

    The 38 super was popular on both sides of the law in the gang wars of the '30's for its ability to defeat bullet proof vests of the day - Something the 45 ACP and 9mm Luger would not accomplish.
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    RMc

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #13 on: May 05, 2017, 05:49:32 PM »
    Why not use a 1911 style built around the 9mm to begin with:

    For those who may have missed it:

    The Springfield EMP series is a 1911 with all original dimensions reduced to fit the 9x19mm cartridge.
    In today's 1911 handgun marketplace those seeking a 9mm 1911 design are not limited to .45acp frame size adapted to the 9mm.
    « Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 06:09:49 PM by RMc »
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #14 on: May 05, 2017, 05:53:15 PM »
    It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison, with modern .45+p ammo against a similar target.

    Anybody got a 1930's vintage vest they'd be willing to part with?  :whistle
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #15 on: May 05, 2017, 05:59:01 PM »
    Ok, so follow up question.

    No doubt the 9mm is effective out of any platform and the same goes for the 1911. Now why would I choose a 1911 commander in 9mm when compared to my Glock 19 or Sig P228? What does it do that they don't? Unless one is just married to the 1911 platform, I am not sure I see the point other than the reduced cost in training ammo.

    Continue with your input!  :cool
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #16 on: May 05, 2017, 06:08:36 PM »
    Ok, so follow up question.

    No doubt the 9mm is effective out of any platform and the same goes for the 1911. Now why would I choose a 1911 commander in 9mm when compared to my Glock 19 or Sig P228? What does it do that they don't? Unless one is just married to the 1911 platform, I am not sure I see the point other than the reduced cost in training ammo.

    Continue with your input!  :cool

    One simple answer would be ergonomics.  The 1911 point more naturally, than the Tupperware.  Can't speak for the Sig, I've never fired one.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #17 on: May 05, 2017, 06:12:50 PM »
    One simple answer would be ergonomics.  The 1911 point more naturally, than the Tupperware.
    Honestly, this is one of those reasons that we always tell shooters to 'buy what fits you the best.'

    Because while you and many others sing their ergonomic praises, I can't shoot 1911s worth a damn.  They just... don't fit me.  For the guys that they fit, I can see the appeal - they are fine weapons - but for my purposes a BHP fits so much better.  Even Glocks fit me better than 1911s.
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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #18 on: May 05, 2017, 06:18:40 PM »
    Honestly, this is one of those reasons that we always tell shooters to 'buy what fits you the best.'

    Because while you and many others sing their ergonomic praises, I can't shoot 1911s worth a damn.  They just... don't fit me.  For the guys that they fit, I can see the appeal - they are fine weapons - but for my purposes a BHP fits so much better.  Even Glocks fit me better than 1911s.

    The very reason I don't own a Glock, I can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside.  Though isn't the BHP similar in ergo, to the 1911?  Wasn't it the predecessor to the 1911?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #19 on: May 05, 2017, 06:19:45 PM »
    Honestly, this is one of those reasons that we always tell shooters to 'buy what fits you the best.'

    Because while you and many others sing their ergonomic praises, I can't shoot 1911s worth a damn.  They just... don't fit me.  For the guys that they fit, I can see the appeal - they are fine weapons - but for my purposes a BHP fits so much better.  Even Glocks fit me better than 1911s.

    Interesting! I thought that the 1911 and BHP had the same grip angle, etc (I've never shot one before), but one fits you better over the other?  :hmm

    Glad I started this thread, I'm learning a lot.

    I personally have two modes when it comes to handguns. I either want a bazillion rounds in a 9mm auto loader or I want a couple stiff .357's. .40 and .45 always seem to get glazed over by me as middle ground/compromise territory. Of course that doesn't mean I still don't think about getting a 1911 or Sig P220  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #20 on: May 05, 2017, 06:30:44 PM »
    Though isn't the BHP similar in ergo, to the 1911?  Wasn't it the predecessor to the 1911?
    Successor, but no, not really.  The 1911 is thinner (can be fixed with fatter grips) and longer in the grip.  The length is what throws me off.  A BHP is a double stack, but is still very sleek of a grip.

    The closest 1911 grip combination that I have come up with is a beavertail with an arched MSH, and wearing Pachmayr American Legend grips.  Short to medium length trigger.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #21 on: May 05, 2017, 06:37:28 PM »
    Successor, but no, not really.  The 1911 is thinner (can be fixed with fatter grips) and longer in the grip.  The length is what throws me off.  A BHP is a double stack, but is still very sleek of a grip.

    Ah, I see, never even held a BHP, let alone fired one.  I put Hogues, or Pachmayrs on everything, or buy them already with.  I've got large-ish hands.  The only thing I've ever found that I didn't think needed anything is the Coonan.  Now there's a hand filling work of art.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #22 on: May 05, 2017, 06:58:43 PM »
    Ah, I see, never even held a BHP, let alone fired one.  I put Hogues, or Pachmayrs on everything, or buy them already with.  I've got large-ish hands.  The only thing I've ever found that I didn't think needed anything is the Coonan.  Now there's a hand filling work of art.

    Now that's the 1911 I should buy  :P. It wouldn't add a new round to my collection and it is well proven.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #23 on: May 05, 2017, 07:09:30 PM »
    Now that's the 1911 I should buy  :P. It wouldn't add a new round to my collection and it is well proven.

    Yeah, gotta love a .357 Magnum on a 1911 platform.  The 1st time I handled on was at the Hanau Gun Club, in Hanau, Germany, and fell immediately in love with it.  Haven't had an opportunity to fire one yet, but I'm bound and determined, I'm gonna own one some day.

    They do have other calibers, by the way.  Here's their website:  http://www.coonaninc.com/  Take a look, but grab a napkin or something to keep the drool off of your keyboard.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    Re: Are single stack, 9mm 1911's dumb?
    « Reply #24 on: May 05, 2017, 07:23:46 PM »
    But, all else equal, like speed, bullet construction, target medium, the bullet with the higher SD will penetrate further.  And the 38 super 130 grain has 220 fps of speed on the 200 grain 45 ACP +p.
    All things being equal? 
    Bigger bullets make bigger holes.  The point of a pistol bullet is to make a hole.  The bigger the hole, the better the hole. And if that hole transits through a vital, even better yet.

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