Author Topic: 7.62x25 Tok vs. FN 5.7 (Read 28801 times)

habs · « **on:** August 22, 2009, 06:58:45 am »

Evidently the verdict is in that the 5.7 isn't the hammer of Thor it was supposed to be. What about the 7.62x25 Tokarev round? Compared to the 9mm you give up some bullet weight and diameter in exchange for speed and penetration.

I've always considered the old Soviet round to be more useful than the 5.7, especially since you can get about 8 cz-52's for the price of 1 P90.

Your thoughts?

WeTheArmed.com

HiVelSword · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:21:49 am »

Yeah, if someone would offer a modern 10+1 singlestack I'd be all over it. 7.62 Tok is a helluva round.

Never tried this but it's significantly longer than the .45 ACP so I don't even think a naked round would fit in a 1911 magwell. Don't have either a loose cartridge or 1911 around to try that tho.

If FN used their 5.7 frame with a different slide I'm sure it'd fit in that. Probably only get 15 in the mag tho. Ha! I said, "only".

Laq · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:33:22 am »

It's a solid round, the Czech military loading, the M48, is _extremely_ hot. Not recommended for any even slightly questionable firearms. I have 2 two CZ-52s and I love them, solid guns with cheap plentiful ammunition. If you're considering a CZ-52 I would highly recommend a firing pin upgrade and some hardened rollers. They sound like a cannon and spit an impressive fireball with the hot loads. It wouldn't be my first choice as a self defense piece, but I don't think I would feel under gunned packing one. All in all a fun round in the CZ-52.

M1911a1lvr · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2009, 09:33:42 am »

Quote from: Laq on August 22, 2009, 07:33:22 am

It's a solid round, the Czech military loading, the M48, is _extremely_ hot. Not recommended for any even slightly questionable firearms. I have 2 two CZ-52s and I love them, solid guns with cheap plentiful ammunition. If you're considering a CZ-52 I would highly recommend a firing pin upgrade and some hardened rollers. They sound like a cannon and spit an impressive fireball with the hot loads. It wouldn't be my first choice as a self defense piece, but I don't think I would feel under gunned packing one. All in all a fun round in the CZ-52.

Well there is a little know fact about the CZECH ammo vs the Russian ammo in this caliber. The Czechs loaded there ammo at higher pressures due to there not wanting to use Russian weapons after they were invaded by the Russians and forced into the empire

. So the Czech republic, were told that they had to use Russian weapons or make there own that used Russian calibers. So they made there own weapons and ammo. As a way to thumb there noses at the Russians for this, They made there weapons to handle higher pressures and loaded there ammo that way. So if you use Czech made 7.62 Tok in a Russian made TT-33 Tokarev pistol it will blow up

. The CZ-52 pistol is over engineered for that purpose. Great pistols and caliber. Another interesting fact about the 7.62 Tok rounds is that it is an armor piercing round in its normal loading. It will penetrate a class 2 vest at 25 yards

. Most cops are still wearing that level of protection. Now I haven't tested a 3 or 3a vest yet.

Mutant Musket · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:35:16 am »

x25 is distilled Chuck Norris. Good for handguns and carbines. It's a failing of Western Culture that the round isn't more widely used.

FMJ · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2009, 02:28:51 pm »

Quote from: Mutant Musket on August 22, 2009, 10:35:16 am

x25 is distilled Chuck Norris. Good for handguns and carbines. It's a failing of Western Culture that the round isn't more widely used.

So is it 50-proof?

Harm · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2009, 02:38:02 pm »

I'm with HiVel on this, if I could get a modern made gun that would use Czech Tok ammo 10rds at least prefer 12 to 17 I'd snatch it AND carry it! Screw the sumb____es doing home invasions in body armor!

ksuguy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2009, 03:04:54 pm »

Yeah I've been wanting a CZ75 style gun in that caliber for a long time.

seanp · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2009, 06:34:53 pm »

Quote from: M1911a1lvr on August 22, 2009, 09:33:42 am

Well there is a little know fact about the CZECH ammo vs the Russian ammo in this caliber. The Czechs loaded there ammo at higher pressures due to there not wanting to use Russian weapons after they were invaded by the Russians and forced into the empire . So the Czech republic, were told that they had to use Russian weapons or make there own that used Russian calibers. So they made there own weapons and ammo. As a way to thumb there noses at the Russians for this, They made there weapons to handle higher pressures and loaded there ammo that way. So if you use Czech made 7.62 Tok in a Russian made TT-33 Tokarev pistol it will blow up .

That is not so. There is an awful lot of surplus Czech 7.62x25 being shot through TT-33's and Norinco Type 54's these days with no such incidents. IIRC a few years back, there was some furor over surplus Czech 7.62x25 blowing up guns, including the CZ-52, and it was suggested that this was supposedly SMG rounds. I don't know if there was any satisfactory conclusion reached, but I do know from personal experience that Czech 7.62x25 pistol rounds can safely be shot in Type 54 pistols, and by extension, TT-33's.

It is a neat, hot little round, with a bit more bark than a 9mm, but no discernible extra recoil. It's reputation for penetration comes from it's being a light, small bore, high velocity round that is typically loaded as a steel jacketed or cored pill by com-bloc arsenals.

Thernlund · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:29:19 pm »

Having just breezed the thread...

I've heard it said that the 7.62x25 just BEGS to be a subgun round.

I don't remember where I heard that or who said it, but after some pondering, I think I agree. A modern 7.62 Tokarev SMG would be made of pure cold-filtered AWESOME.

-T.

AR lover · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:53:25 pm »

Quote from: Thernlund on August 22, 2009, 07:29:19 pm

Having just breezed the thread...

I've heard it said that the 7.62x25 just BEGS to be a subgun round.

I don't remember where I heard that or who said it, but after some pondering, I think I agree. A modern 7.62 Tokarev SMG would be made of pure cold-filtered AWESOME.

-T.

Something like a Kel-Tec Sub2k? That would be insane.

toad · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:32:35 pm »

The main reason the 7.62 X 25 Tok round lived on as long as it did was the Russian PPSh-41 submachine gun. Muzzle velocity of about 1500 fps, rate of fire 900 rounds per minute, 71 round drum magazine or 35 round box (preferred) and would kill at a hundred yards. IIRC energy something like a .40 S&W. The Hungarians were making a version of it as late as the 1980s. It is still in Russian inventory for reserve troops. IIRC the Russians made around 6 million of them. I don't know what the total would be if you threw in the Chinese and all the Warsaw Pact countries manufactured versions.

FMJ · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2009, 11:40:41 pm »

Really, the Russians still use them?

D4N · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2009, 06:58:13 am »

ad FMJ: Russian army doesn't use them anymore in active duty, but they probably still have some in reserve for WW3.

When it comes on 7.62TT SMGs everyone' s talking about PPS41. That gun was a POS like all Russian WW2 SMGs. Made in large quantities with simplest tools. No surprise these guns were inaccurate and unreliable. The PPS41 drum mag was source of failures. No wonder they were later replaced by 32 round box mags.
The best 7.62 TT SMG was constructed after war in Czechoslovakia. It's Called Vz. 24 or Vz. 26, AKA ''Pumpicka" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa_vz._23

If I had to go for 7.62TT SMG I'd take the folding stock version, the Vz.26. The surplus Vz.24/Vz.26 are really cheap now, I saw them for 4500 CZK that's roughly 250$.

JesseL · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2009, 01:53:26 pm »

Quote from: D4N on August 24, 2009, 06:58:13 am

When it comes on 7.62TT SMGs everyone' s talking about PPS41. That gun was a POS like all Russian WW2 SMGs. Made in large quantities with simplest tools. No surprise these guns were inaccurate and unreliable. The PPS41 drum mag was source of failures. No wonder they were later replaced by 32 round

I bet you could hit something when you let loose with 88 of them at once though:

Harm · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:01:59 pm »

HOLY CRAP! WHAT IS THAT!?

JesseL · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:15:41 pm »

To quote Neal Stephenson in Cryptonomicon:

Quote

Ask a Soviet engineer to design a pair of shoes and he'll come up with something that looks like the boxes that the shoes came in; ask him to make something that will massacre Germans, and he turns into Thomas fluffing Edison.

That is what the Soviets named the "Fire Hedgehog". A Tu-2 bomber with 88 PPs41s in its belly.

Deer Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2009, 03:53:38 pm »

http://www.cncgunsparts.com/

They make AR-15 uppers in this caliber.

Harm · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2009, 05:07:17 pm »

HOLY COW DH Thats COOL! Now I need to get an AR! Seriously awesome!

FMJ · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2009, 08:25:59 pm »

That Russian SMG bomber: INSANE. Holy Crap!

Mutant Musket · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2009, 09:01:03 am »

D4N, come on now. Stalin did insane and unforgivable things, but that doesn't mean that Russian sub-guns were POSs.

D4N · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:28:26 pm »

At least those few I had in hand.
Rughly made wit big tolerances. I saw PPS43 with accuracy good enough to hit barn door on 20 meters (roughly 20 yards). I shot MosinM44 which was hard work to move the bolt, and trigger so heavy.

I've noticed that on US gun boards are the russian guns overvalued.

Russian guns espetialy those made during WW2 were constructed to be made with the lowest consumption of material, with simplest tools and for mass production. During the WW2 Spagins were made in every workshop available. All was sacrificed for the numbers of produced pieces. So the quality of production varied from poor to awful. Of course the after war made pieces are much better.

On other hand, these russian guns often shoot and doesn't require much care. Maybe that's why most American gunpeople like them.

Yeah, and I say the Sten and Grease gun was the same.

FluffyHitman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:44:02 pm »

I wonder how well those guns had been cared for after WWII. I doubt that they were quite that shoddy to begin with, I know Larry likes/liked the PPSh-41 better than the MP5. Never had my hands on any, so I don't have personal experience.

Harm · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:47:54 pm »

The local Class 3 rental range has a PPSh got to look at it a couple weeks back. It does look pretty rough. But I asked them how often it was "out" due to breakage etc. They said "NEVER!" Thats compared to the array of AR/M16 full auto's that are out for servicing regularly, compared to the Thompsons, the Grease Guns etc. That impressed me. Don't know anything more about it.

Deer Hunter · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2009, 05:11:19 pm »

Quote

Rughly made wit big tolerances. I saw PPS43 with accuracy good enough to hit barn door on 20 meters

I have seen an absolutely blown-out horrible corroded barrel on an old russians AK parts kit still shoot 6 inches at 100 yards with the proper numbskull behind the trigger. I think the PPS43 could do a little better than barn door at 20 meters.