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Author Topic: .22lr or .25ACP  (Read 10772 times)

mephisto

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.22lr or .25ACP
« on: July 25, 2011, 02:57:03 PM »
My wife has givin me the thumbs up to get her a PD gun. She doesn't want a 9mm or a .380, she didn't like them (to snappy ???) but she did like the little Beretta Bobcat. So my ? is should I look into a .25ACP( or even a .32) or just go with a .22?
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JesseL

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 03:02:43 PM »
.25 ACP is supposed to have an edge in primer reliability, but I think that with quality ammo I'd prefer the .22 due to it's edge in power and penetration.

If at all possible though, stepping up to a .32 is the better choice.
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sqlbullet

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 03:15:03 PM »
Like Jesse, I think I would prioritize 32, then 22.  25 ACP would be my last choice.
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onesmack4u

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 03:19:37 PM »
One of te best and smallest 32 autos on the market is the Kel Tec P32. It is a little cheap looking, but it is absolutely reliable. I have shot five different examples with no problems. It is smaller than any of the current production 22 or 25 autos out there. The recoil is very managable. My mother has a P32 and has no problems shooting it despite arthritis and a weak grip. If she likes double action pistols, I would look at the Beretta Tomcat.

The .25 acp is not as effective as a 22lr and the ammo is as expensive as a 45 acp. 22lr tends to have reliability issues in small pistols.
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mephisto

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 03:32:28 PM »
My wife shot a PPK(380) and a Beretta Storm SC(9mm) at a target(10') and couldnt hit it,shooting in a somewhat rapid fire exercise, but was able to put all 7 shots with the Bobcat in the chest.
ArizonaI'm worth a million in prizes.

"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."

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"....if you own a gun and have a swimming pool in the yard, the swimming pool is almost 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is."

ksuguy

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 03:51:52 PM »
Yeah, .32 or .22.  Then take her shooting a lot and maybe she will step up to something bigger after she gets more comfortable.
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mattitude

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 06:36:55 PM »
A PPK is actually a difficult gun to shoot for a beginner...they do have a pretty crappy trigger.  I would be willing to bet your wife would do much better with a different pistol.  Personally I would avoid the .25ACP at all costs...I would feel safer with a good knife or a pocket full of rocks.  .22LR in a pocket or micro pistol makes ammo selection more difficult because it's impossible for any projectile to go supersonic out of such a short barrel which will hinder bullet performance as it's advertised.  I would stay away from the smaller calibers unless it's a last resort. 
North CarolinaMedically retired Air Force (17 years, 7 months & 25 days)


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HiVelSword

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 07:06:32 PM »
I would suggest a Bersa over a PPK. Hands down.

For those hell bent on having a .25 or .22 I always tell them this, "Practice dumping the entire contents of the pistol in the face and neck (assuming near contact distances) as quickly as possible.

And then run."

Shock and awe. A missing eye along with other shots to the face, neck, pulling their hands away and seeing blood (if they still have a working eye) and the idiot will have more important things to think about than carrying through with the plan that made you shoot him to begin with.

And then again one of the shots might enter the brain...

You just brought horror and possibly death upon someone with a lowly .25 or .22. Just don't bother shooting center mass and the mouse gun carrier should be okay. That's my thoughts on it at least.
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

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JackCrow

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 07:21:57 PM »
A P32 is my "always" gun. It is so small and light that I can always have it with me even when carring a larger gun. It has been 100% reliable and acceptably accurate. I load it with fmj. However, I will soon be getting a S&W 442 and it will probably replace it.

.22 LR is better than nothing but I would recommend .22mag and avoid .25 caliber completely given the choice.
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Mamba1-0

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 08:19:58 PM »
Having been shot dead in the chest with a .25ACP from about 10 feet away, I'd recommend at least the .22lr. The .32ACP would, of course be preferable.
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HiVelSword

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 10:13:51 PM »
Having been shot dead in the chest with a .25ACP from about 10 feet away, I'd recommend at least the .22lr. The .32ACP would, of course be preferable.

I think both (.25 and .22 LR) suck center mass. Either empty the mag in the face or run. If that's all you have then both is ideal ;)
To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

"You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do." Rorschach-Watchmen

mnw42

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2011, 10:03:56 PM »
.32 is a far better choice then the .25 or .22.

The other option is to look at a S&W M60, old Colt Dick. Special or Ruger SP101.  If she can manage the DA trigger; they may better choices.
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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011, 11:55:03 PM »
The SP101 is heavy to carry, but the weight makes it soft to shoot.  In .357 it gives options from .38 wadcutters for gentle training up to 180 grain magnums (if you want to set your target on fire).  Look at the 3" barrel instead of the snub.  There is something to be said for light weight and ease of carry, because a great gun in the safe does not help you on an errand. 

+1 on try more different guns before settling. 
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Coronach

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2011, 05:14:17 PM »
Have her try one of the newer .380 pocket pistols (Ruger LCP, S&W Bodyguard, Diamondback 380, NAA, etc) before she gives up on the .380 cartridge. The LCP is very easy to point shoot, has a decent trigger, and is tiny. I'd carry one over a PPK.

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akodo

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2011, 06:07:46 PM »
a little late to the party but...

For the LARGER 25 acp vs 22LR handguns, I'd go with 22LR just for less expensive ammo = more practice.  25 acp is better sealed, and hence 'ages well' but honestly for the price of 25 acp ammo you can afford to put new 22LR ammo in monthly and STILL come out ahead.

Now, if you were going to be carrying concealed in very 'personal' places rather than in a pocket holster, ankle holster, or a gun in a purse, then the 25 acp comes to the fore because the smallest semiautos are in 25 acp only.  (Baby Browning and such) and if you have to deep conceal then the small factor outweighs the other factors.

HOWEVER there may be some other options.  The Beretta Tomcat is a slightly larger bobcat in 32 acp.  Sig made the P230 which was an 'improved Walther PPK' in 32 acp.  They have since switched to the P232 which IIRC is in 380 only, but a used P230 in 32 acp might be a solid choice.

380acp in very light guns can have some snap.  However 380 in larger handguns can be quite tame.  Beretta has the 80 series of 380 pistols.  I have had personal experience with the single stack (I cannot always keep the model numbers straight) which was quite slim and easy to hold and a real pussycat to shoot due to the gun being relatively heavy for a 380.  Similarly, Browning makes/made nearly the same thing called the BDA except IIRC the safety was located in a slightly different spot. 

A while back apparently Beretta actually had FN/Browning make some BDAs for them under Beretta's name in 32 ACP for a large police contract.  (I don't know who but I have been told the Tokyo police were for a while issued Sig 230s in 32 acp) And these came back as surplus about 10 years ago.  IF the BSA or Beretta model 80s in 380 are pussycats then the 32 acp version would be a kitten.  I seriously considered buying one for some recoil sensitive family members partly based on my previous experience with the Beretta model 80 series.

Similarly the great CZ-83 is also available in 32 acp

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2CZ8391305-1.html

Also apparently Bersa's copy of the Walther PPK is also available in 32 acp.  And of course the Walther itself, you should be able to find that in 32 acp.



NOW, an entirely different option is a small frame revolver in 327 magnum or 32 H&R magnum, using 32 long ammo for practice.  You can get a 3" barreled SP101 which would have quite a bit of heft and really tame even the 327s, or I believe both Taurus and Smith&Wesson make a lightweight version in 327 magnum or at least 32 H&R mag, again, load with 32 S&W long  for very low recoil practice.

akodo

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2011, 06:13:33 PM »
Oh! forgot to add the Smith and Wesson Model 51

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=248380624

J frame 3 1/2 inch 22 magnum, with the longer barrel it better harnesses the power of the 22 magnum

Panhead Bill

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2011, 07:21:40 PM »
If you're limited to .22 or .25, absolutely go with .22. The advice I've heard re .25 is that if you ever have to shoot someone with a .25, do it and run, 'cause once they figure out you shot 'em they're gonna be really pissed!

Seriously, I had to shoot a sick rabbit once and all I had available was a beretta .25 - I emptied the mag into it's head and it still lived for awhile. I would not trust my life to that caliber.

Bill
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crstrode

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 04:37:45 PM »
 .25 ACP is ballistically superior to 22LR


All over the "Interweb" you will find folks regurgitating the myth that a 22LR is equal or greater than the 25ACP in terms of muzzle energy.

What a lot of hooey!

This is most likely due to fact that most 22LR ballistics data is based upon much much longer barrels than found in pocket pistols. North American Arms has some good actual performance data on the 22LR from a short barrel. Here is the link: http://northamericanarms.com/ballistics

The fact is that the 25 ACP packs 25% more poop merely because the standard 50 grain bullet is 25% larger than the typical 40 grain 22LR bullet. Both cartridges leave the end of the same length barrel at about the same velocity. Typically the 22LR is actually lower than the typical 25ACP.

Comparing a 50 grain 25ACP bullet to a 40 grain 22LR bullet at 750 fps muzzle velocity shows 62.4 vs 49.9 foot pounds.

(Mass in grains times Velocity in feet per second squared divided by 450400 = foot pounds energy)

mwcoleburn

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 04:43:09 PM »
Wow, you went through all that trouble getting an account to necromance a dead thread and tell people they were wrong.  :thumbup1





 :facepalm
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JesseL

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2012, 04:53:43 PM »
.25 ACP is ballistically superior to 22LR


All over the "Interweb" you will find folks regurgitating the myth that a 22LR is equal or greater than the 25ACP in terms of muzzle energy.

What a lot of hooey!

This is most likely due to fact that most 22LR ballistics data is based upon much much longer barrels than found in pocket pistols. North American Arms has some good actual performance data on the 22LR from a short barrel. Here is the link: http://northamericanarms.com/ballistics

The fact is that the 25 ACP packs 25% more poop merely because the standard 50 grain bullet is 25% larger than the typical 40 grain 22LR bullet. Both cartridges leave the end of the same length barrel at about the same velocity. Typically the 22LR is actually lower than the typical 25ACP.

Comparing a 50 grain 25ACP bullet to a 40 grain 22LR bullet at 750 fps muzzle velocity shows 62.4 vs 49.9 foot pounds.

(Mass in grains times Velocity in feet per second squared divided by 450400 = foot pounds energy)


Interesting to dig up a dead topic for your first post, but okay.

Let's look at some other numbers:
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/25auto.html

The energies for the 3 .25 acp loads from the 2" barrel are: 63, 67, & 68 ft/lbs respectively. The energies for the .22 long rifle loads from the 2" test barrel are 44, 48, 67, 65, 61, 57, 65, 66, 69, & 59 ft/lbs respectively.

So, there's that.

On another tack, I'm not a huge fan of muzzle energy as the be-all end-all of cartridge comparisons. Which of these rounds has the best penetration? Which is more accurate? Which is more reliable? Which can you afford to practice with enough to be competent?

All more relevant issues. Even more relevant is that handgun rounds all suck and these two suck more than most.

I'd say a much better expenditure off all that effort would be figuring out how to carry a bigger gun.
Arizona

TimGerber

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 02:23:20 PM »
I would get her a Ruger SR22.  Get her shooting.  More importantly, get her used to carrying a weapon she can get hits with.  Try to move her up to a larger caliber in 1 year.

TimG

akodo

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 03:53:08 PM »
My wife has givin me the thumbs up to get her a PD gun. She doesn't want a 9mm or a .380, she didn't like them (to snappy ???) but she did like the little Beretta Bobcat. So my ? is should I look into a .25ACP( or even a .32) or just go with a .22?

For fun plinking and hunting 22LR has the edge due to price.

For carrying close to the body 25 acp has the edge to to being better sealed preventing moisture from getting into the powder etc.  However the 22LR is so cheap you can avoid this concern by changing the ammo frequently.

Price between 25 acp and 32 acp is inconsequential so I'd definitely encourage you to go that route.

If she is avoiding snappy, you might be able to get one of the larger 380 ACP pistols, like the Beretta 80's series.  I'd especially look at the Beretta 85 as it is a single stack so the grip is slimmer, better for smaller hands.  The heft of the pistol in general will really tame the recoil.  I think the 380 is a serious enough upgrade from the 25 acp that it is worth buying even if you have to resell it at a $200-300 loss a few weeks later.  It's Browning BDA cousin was at one time available in 32 acp if the 380 acp is too snappy. I think the only difference between the two guns is the location of the safety/decocker, kind of like the Beretta 92 vs the Taurus 92

Cz 83 has been imported in 32 acp, with a 15 round mag IIRC.  That would be a strong second choice due to it's capacity




I see I answered almost the same as last time. Oops. Didn't realize it was Necro Thread
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:05:29 PM by akodo »

hi-power

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 04:43:31 PM »
a .22 is always nice to have around, but a .25 might just sit in the safe if you learn to handle something bigger. a .22 that corresponded to a more potent model is probably ideal. Bersa makes their Thunder series in .22 and .380, beretta has the Bobcat in .22 and the Tomcat in .32 and the Cheetah series akodo mentioned can be had in .22 and .380 as well.

all academic at this point anyway.

gunfan

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2013, 08:41:56 PM »
Jan Libourel wrote a wonderful piece in a Guns & Ammo special called "Pocket Pistols" (June 1984) where he compared the .25 ACP and .22 LR in two identical Beretta Model 21A pistols. The .22 LR cme up short of the .25 ACP due to the lighter (and softer) lead bullet. This inhibited the penetration and its effective range, while the .25 ACP's FMJ (generating nearly identical energies) penetrated more deeply due to bullet construction.

One can't deny the immutable laws of physics.

Scott
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Coronach

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Re: .22lr or .25ACP
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 08:46:57 PM »
One can't deny the immutable laws of physics, but is bullet construction NOW the same as bullet construction almost 3 decades ago?

Mike
OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.


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