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Author Topic: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...  (Read 5193 times)

Coronach

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10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« on: January 31, 2011, 12:39:43 PM »
I've been wondering for a while now how the best two never-quite-widely-accepted auto calibers stack up against each other, and various other not-so-common calibers in the same size/power range. Assuming we're talking duty-type loads (that is, not the loaded-as-hot-as-possible stuff, and not the milquetoast mild practice stuff), how do they stack up against each other? Yes, I am aware that shooting either is an exercise in reloading, or an exercise in abusing your wallet- I need no warning there.

Heck, throw .357 Sig into the mix, too. How does the newcomer stack up against the old warhorse, .38 Super?

Basically, I'm eventully going to get another 1911 pattern gun, and I'm interested in something a little more off the beaten path than .45ACP (I already have two .45s, a 1927 Sistema and a 4506). I do already have a 10mm (Glock 20), so I was leaning towards the .38 Super, just because. Then I started thinking, and, well, nothing good comes of that.

Heck, what guns are chambered in .38 super, besides 1911s?


Thanks,

Mike
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JesseL

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 12:54:14 PM »
Besides various 1911's; there are some EAA/Tanfoglio Witness pistols in .38 Super, and the Taurus PT38.

Arizona

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 12:58:15 PM »
I've actually seen a SigP220 chambered in 38 Super but apparently a few were imported - how many though, ?  :shrug  Other than 1911s I've seen a few here and there.  The caliber seems to be popular here in Az with immigrants from Mexico because they are familiar with it (one of the few centerfire cartridges available to civilians down there IIRC) so what specific guns availabe I have no idea.

Regarding the calibers you reference the biggest issues as I understand it are one of bullet design for any serious use. I've seen exactly one available offering for SD related ammo for 38 Super.  Wheras I've seen 357Sig and 10mm in many available options, it may be more difficult to find, but it is possible to find.  

For use I've heard from many sources of LEO using 357 Sig on 2 legged nasties and 4 legged nasties including Pits and Rotties in full on attack mode to great effect.  This gives me confidence in the caliber.  add in the easy swap in Sigs & Glocks to practice in cheaper 40 and its a good option.  

Of course for use then you have my cousin - who last year retired hunting bear with his rifle and instead uses a Glock 20 10mm.  And he's racked up an impressive collection of kills with it.  Add in reports from Uncle Ted and the 10mm seems to give a bit more for bigger targets.  

So I guess it depends on what you can envision drawing sights on.  
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Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 01:13:22 PM »
.357 SIG and .38 Super have good track records against vehicles.  The Texas DPS has no trouble "taming" felonious criminals behind the windshields of tractor trailer trucks with their .357 SIGs, and the .38 Super was chosen by many lawmen for its ability to punch through automobile bodies - ie: the ones of its day which were made with STEEL.

Throw in the .357 SIG's effectiveness against Rotties and Pit Bulls, you should be good for anything up through black bear.  Quick word of advice, if you're using a handgun against a Grizzly Bear, either just take a sledgehammer to your wrist and splash on A1 Steak Sauce.  This way, said Grizzly will at least have something more flavorful than normal, and you'll still get much of the same effect as using a proper Grizzly caliber.

Personally, I prefer something shoulder mounted, like a Carl Gustav 84mm for Grizzly.  Then again, I actually LIKE the idea the Israeli's had of using F-16's against snipers.

Seriousness?

The P220 was made in .38 Super and that was the sidearm or an optional choice of the Secret Service for a long time before going to the P229 in .357 SIG.  That tells me everything I need to know which is - 9 rounds .38 Super good, 13 rounds .357 SIG better.
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Harm

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 01:21:32 PM »
To clarify the cousin is going after Black Bear with a 10mm NOT Grizzlies.   :nervous
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Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 01:26:26 PM »
Then .38 Super be good.

Back to Coronach - back in the 80's, my favorite, ideal handgun was the Colt Combat Commander in .38 Super.  Nine shots of .357 Magnum oomph in the sweet, sleek concealment platform with a full Guv'mint grip.  Still haven't changed my mind, despite my love/hate/ex-boyfriend-stalking-Colt relationship.

I thought a Desert Ego with a .357 chambering and a 4 inch barrel might actually be even better, but that never came about. :(  Also, it was way fatter.

Coonan Arms and the LAR Grizzly were both .357 Magnum as well - and were very 1911 pattern.
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coelacanth

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 12:15:18 AM »
Like you, I went looking for something out of the ordinary.  I ended up with a 6" long slide 1911 in .38 Super.  That seemed a logical way to satisfy my curiosity about both the 6" 1911 and the legendary .38 Super.  Mild recoil, respectable punch, more accurate than I can hold and probably something you'll never see on the next station  at the local range ( at least if the nosiness of the range wardens is any indication. ).  What's not to like?  Some very decent hunting or defensive loads can be had from custom ammo manufacturers like Stars and Stripes.  Yes, its pricey but so was my motorcycle and they both put a grin on my face.  Reloading is the key to keeping your shooting costs down. 

I haven't chrono'd it yet but the seat of my pants tells me it is definitely hotter and flatter shooting than my 9mm's.  I imagine with the six inch tube its getting pretty close to .357 Sig ballistics with 125 grainers.   I think 147 grainers will give me basically a ten shot .357 magnum or pretty near it.  Sounds like a pretty good walking around the desert gun to me.   ;)
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GeorgeHill

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 12:29:43 AM »
9mm Largo.
9x23mm. 

I kinda like the 9x23mm... lots of penetration...
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Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 12:48:57 AM »
You do know that, at least for a brief moment, there was the .38 Casull. 
After a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

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sqlbullet

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 10:22:15 AM »
9X23 is a pretty slick round, although since all my guns fit a 10mm head, I would opt for a 9X25.  I have a 38 super barrel around somewhere for my witness that I need to get reamed. 

I have Bob Serva of Fusion firearms work me up a quote on my own personal 1911 anniversary gun.  1911A1 frame, wide spur hammer, standard grip safety, thumb safety, slide stop.  Titanium nitride finish.  10-8 performance sights.  10mm caliber.

Going to order as soon as I figure out the tax situation.
Utah

Coronach

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 01:57:30 PM »
Interesting info. 9x23 and 9x25 are Winchester and Dillon, respectively, yes? How to they perform with respect to each other? I know that the 9x23 is a stomper.

Another question: which case heads are similar? 9x23 is on a 9mm case head, and 9x25 is on a 10mm/.40? I assume that .38 super, with its odd rim, is a 9mm? Or is it a creature all its own?

What about OAL of the various rounds? How stretched out is this going to make a 1911 grip?

Very interesting info!

Mike
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JesseL

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 02:08:41 PM »
Another question: which case heads are similar? 9x23 is on a 9mm case head, and 9x25 is on a 10mm/.40? I assume that .38 super, with its odd rim, is a 9mm? Or is it a creature all its own?

9x23 has a rim diameter of .394", .38 Super's rim is .406, and 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum/NATO) is .392; but I believe they all use the same slide/extractor/ejector setup in 1911s.

Quote
What about OAL of the various rounds? How stretched out is this going to make a 1911 grip?

The max OAL on all of these should be short enough to fit in a standard 1911 grip (<=1.26").
Arizona

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 05:50:26 PM »
9X23 in a 125 grain bullet tops out around 1500-1600 fps.  The 9X25 will add another 200 fps.

But you loose round count with the fatter 9X25 body.  9+1 is what will fit in the grip with an extra capacity magazine that may have reliability issues.  9X23 you should get 10+1.
Utah

Coronach

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Re: 10mm vs .38 super vs ...
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 07:01:58 PM »
OK, cool.

Back on THR I as talking with Ken about having Jim Garthwaite do a custom 1911 that was multi-caliber. He seemed to think that with two slides, and a lot of barrels and springs, you could do all of the main and most of the lesser-known calibers in between 9mm and .45 ACP (well, three slides if you wanted to do .45 ACP).

Oh yes, and money. LOTS of money.  :doh

Mike
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