Author Topic: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns." (Read 22404 times)

RMc · « **on:** August 29, 2016, 10:30:41 pm »

Here is a litany of cases where bear, wolf and other dangerous animals are stopped with common self defense arms:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/

Your thoughts?

WeTheArmed.com

tokugawa · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2016, 12:13:43 am »

Perhaps the rest of the question should be "how many times did a handgun fail to stop the predator?"

Anything is better than nothing, hard cast bullets are definitely needed for penetration, with any handgun.

I carried a 12 gauge with 1 3/8oz brenneke slugs in the bush. I did not feel especially overgunned with distraught bears around....

Mikee5star · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2016, 01:32:11 am »

For Dangerous Predators, I have carried many weapons. But the most common were handguns, Glock 29 being my favorite. 10mm loaded at home with 200 or 220 grain wide flat points at max pressures makes for great stopping. The gun you have is better than the one at home or left behind in a vehicle.

RMc · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2016, 02:13:41 am »

"...wide flat points..."

So are these flat point bullets most effective because of straight penetration - compared to round nose bullets?

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2016, 09:43:02 am »

Quote from: RMc on August 30, 2016, 02:13:41 am

So are these flat point bullets most effective because of straight penetration - compared to round nose bullets?

No. Because they cut a wider permanent wound channel.

tokugawa · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2016, 10:21:11 am »

The guy at Buffalo Bore ammo has some interesting writing on this subject, first person. One of the better informed on the subject. Recommended reading.

sqlbullet · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2016, 10:42:20 am »

The heavy weight for caliber gives straight deep penetration. The wide flat nose cuts a better permanent wound channel. The are fun at the range cause it looks like you are punching the target with a hole punch. Perfect round holes with nice crisp edges.

RMc · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2016, 11:14:20 am »

So then, heavy for caliber, hard, WFN bullets are superior to hollow points for self defense.

"While struggling with the bear, the Ranger was able to draw his 4-inch S&W model 66, .357 Magnum revolver. His ammunition was 158 grain semi jacketed hollow point. As he fought with the bear he shot it four or five times in the head. The bullets did not penetrate the bear’s skull. He shot the bear in the neck with his 5th or 6th shot, killing it instantly."

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/

sqlbullet · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2016, 01:57:50 pm »

Attacks stop by disabling the attacker. This means either central nervous system disruption or exsanguination. In order to accomplish either, you have to reach into well protected vital areas.

For defense against humans, modern defensive hollow point ammunition accomplishes the correct balance between penetration and expansion to ensure you reach vital areas and disrupt lots of tissue, accelerating exsanguination.

Bears have different anatomy. The neck shots probably reached the spinal column, and since it was the neck, had less bone to penetrate to do the job.

I carry 200 grain JHP's for general defense personally.

First Shirt · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2016, 02:17:07 pm »

The late John "Pondoro" Taylor was quoted as saying, more than once "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."

coelacanth · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2016, 01:37:36 am »

Not a lot of really dangerous predators here in Arizona unless you count the two legged variety. That said, over the years I have carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, a Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnum, A S&W Model 28 in .357 magnum and a S&W Model 625 in .45 ACP and a Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. Those guns were invariably carried with heavy for caliber bullets and all but the Colt were usually flat pointed as well. The S&W Model 625 is very accurate with the Double Tap 255 grain Keith style semi-wadcutter flat point.

Any of those guns with the loads described are a match for the kind of trouble I'm likely to run into in these parts. Lately the S&W 625 has been getting the nod over the others because A) Its stainless and requires less care in the field B) Its lighter than the others C) I can make big freakin' holes in things pretty much where I want them to be.

JesseL · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2016, 11:37:41 am »

The last guy I heard about in my area dealing with a truly dangerous predator used a big cast iron skillet.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2012/05/10/ktvk-dnt-rabid-mt-lion-attacks-dog.ktvk.html

First Shirt · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2016, 12:42:38 pm »

Other than the two-legged variety, the only dangerous game around here is feral pigs, so when I hunt them, or hunt other things where pigs also range (which is damned near everywhere) I carry a bird's head Vaquero in .45 Colt, loaded with 300 gr. WFN, hardcast bullets over really silly amounts of H-110 or W-296. I've only had to use it twice in 20 years, but it worked like a charm, both times.

RMc · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2016, 06:53:24 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeHill on August 30, 2016, 09:43:02 am

No. Because they cut a wider permanent wound channel.

You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.

MTK20 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2016, 07:20:36 pm »

Quote from: RMc on September 06, 2016, 06:53:24 pm

You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.

Although flat point bullets never get clogged by clothing, rendering them less effective

.

JesseL · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2016, 07:47:20 pm »

Quote from: RMc on September 06, 2016, 06:53:24 pm

You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.

But those sacrifice penetration depth to get an even wider wound channel.

The critical factors for stopping a threat with a firearm are always shot placement, penetration to critical organs or structures, and width of the permanent cavity; in that order.

A bullet that misses or hits a non-critical area will never be effective.
A bullet that can't penetrate deep enough to disable something important will never be effective.
A bullet that doesn't do enough damage to important things or let enough blood out fast enough might eventually stop the threat - but it might be too late.

Mikee5star · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2016, 10:09:39 pm »

Quote from: JesseL on September 06, 2016, 07:47:20 pm

But those sacrifice penetration depth to get an even wider wound channel.

The critical factors for stopping a threat with a firearm are always shot placement, penetration to critical organs or structures, and width of the permanent cavity; in that order.

A bullet that misses or hits a non-critical area will never be effective.
A bullet that can't penetrate deep enough to disable something important will never be effective.
A bullet that doesn't do enough damage to important things or let enough blood out fast enough might eventually stop the threat - but it might be too late.

This for the win. Only thing I would add is a bullet/firearm at home will also never be effective.

sarge712 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2016, 01:16:06 am »

Quote from: tokugawa on August 30, 2016, 12:13:43 am

Perhaps the rest of the question should be "how many times did a handgun fail to stop the predator?"

Anything is better than nothing, hard cast bullets are definitely needed for penetration, with any handgun.

I carried a 12 gauge with 1 3/8oz brenneke slugs in the bush. I did not feel especially overgunned with distraught bears around....

Very interesting. Where is this with the aggressive bears? Alaska? Montana?

sarge712 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2016, 01:20:18 am »

Quote from: First Shirt on August 30, 2016, 02:17:07 pm

The late John "Pondoro" Taylor was quoted as saying, more than once "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."

RMc · « **Reply #19 on:** September 10, 2016, 05:56:49 pm »

So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.

Mikee5star · « **Reply #20 on:** September 10, 2016, 06:10:11 pm »

Quote from: RMc on September 10, 2016, 05:56:49 pm

So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.

Yes. Ideally the shot to stop a dangerous predator attack will be a CNS shot. Secondarily you want to "brake down" the animal. This means breaking major bones, shoulders and pelvis ideally. When the critter is immobilized then a CNS or heart/lung shot to finish them off. A heart/lung shot will most likely not stop an attack in time to save your hide. It might save your life but...

The guy who is credited with killing the most brown/grizzly bears in Alaska, I will remember his name at 4am, aimed for the pelvis first. This anchored them so that he could kill them safely. IIRC he used a 30.06 for the vast majority of his kills.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #21 on:** September 10, 2016, 07:06:31 pm »

Quote from: RMc on September 10, 2016, 05:56:49 pm

So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.

Exactly. This is also why most DG Bullets are hard cast or Monolithic solids... to prevent deformation which could reduce penetration or steer it off course. You want it to be able to crush bone and keep going. Ideally, you want a heavy bullet that's as flat as it gets, that can penetrate as deep as possible. That's a DG bullet.

tokugawa · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2016, 10:59:59 am »

Quote from: sarge712 on September 07, 2016, 01:16:06 am

Very interesting. Where is this with the aggressive bears? Alaska? Montana?

Alaska, mostly in the northern interior. North (flowing into the Beaufort sea), and South (flowing into the Koyokuk and Yukon) slope of the Brooks range.
The ones I have run into were not really "aggressive", although they can be- More like upset or worried about me. Most of the grizzly bears would run away. I never had to fire a shot. Got close on an occasion, but was paying close attention to the wind. Bears have a sense of smell that is astounding. Surprised a sow and cubs once in restricted terrain, thankfully they ran the other of two ways out. She was Very agitated and very close.
Young male bears apparently can be aggressive and curious, and old ones with bad teeth and attitude can be dangerous.

One thing about a pump shotgun or a lever action rifle- the flat slim receiver makes it easy to hand carry for days- the somewhat fat round stock of a bolt gun does not sit as well in my hand- I carried a 338wm for a few trips so have some comparison. Although it is a much better hunting weapon.
I did not like to have a slung rifle, it bumps around and is hard to carry with a pack. Carried in the hand or over the shoulder held by the barrel. (unloaded chamber and muzzle away from my companions, of course).
Just got back from the Alaskan peninsula- there are a lot of big bears there! Many more than the north slope, there is a lot more food available. Nice to see them from a boat...!

sarge712 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2016, 09:05:38 pm »

Quote from: tokugawa on September 13, 2016, 10:59:59 am

Alaska, mostly in the northern interior. North (flowing into the Beaufort sea), and South (flowing into the Koyokuk and Yukon) slope of the Brooks range.
The ones I have run into were not really "aggressive", although they can be- More like upset or worried about me. Most of the grizzly bears would run away. I never had to fire a shot. Got close on an occasion, but was paying close attention to the wind. Bears have a sense of smell that is astounding. Surprised a sow and cubs once in restricted terrain, thankfully they ran the other of two ways out. She was Very agitated and very close.
Young male bears apparently can be aggressive and curious, and old ones with bad teeth and attitude can be dangerous.

One thing about a pump shotgun or a lever action rifle- the flat slim receiver makes it easy to hand carry for days- the somewhat fat round stock of a bolt gun does not sit as well in my hand- I carried a 338wm for a few trips so have some comparison. Although it is a much better hunting weapon.
I did not like to have a slung rifle, it bumps around and is hard to carry with a pack. Carried in the hand or over the shoulder held by the barrel. (unloaded chamber and muzzle away from my companions, of course).
Just got back from the Alaskan peninsula- there are a lot of big bears there! Many more than the north slope, there is a lot more food available. Nice to see them from a boat...!

Thanks. I'm a "shotgun with slugs" guy (and I also favor Brenneke slugs) and while that's enough down here in the Smoky Mountains for black bear, wild hogs and human threats, I'd not feel over-gunned either with grizzly bears.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #24 on:** September 14, 2016, 09:15:13 am »

Quote from: sarge712 on September 13, 2016, 09:05:38 pm

Thanks. I'm a "shotgun with slugs" guy (and I also favor Brenneke slugs) and while that's enough down here in the Smoky Mountains for black bear, wild hogs and human threats, I'd not feel over-gunned either with grizzly bears.

THIS.