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Author Topic: Need advice on a BHP  (Read 5572 times)

Kaso

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Need advice on a BHP
« on: September 01, 2016, 10:12:25 AM »
My BHP clone is one of my favorite guns.  It fits my hand superbly, and the trigger is literally The Best of all of my guns.  I just can't get it to shoot where I want.

As I mentioned in a thread some months ago, the POI was much higher than the POA.  Jesse was nice enough to replace the front sight with a taller one, and install an adjustable rear.  This should theoretically have fixed the issue, as the front sight is significantly taller than before...  Yet it is still shooting 14" or so high at 25yds, and to top that I can not get it to group well.  The grouping could be me, (and most likely is) but I find the vertical discrepancy bothersome.  I have tried multiple types of 9mm, and they all print high.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I can try next?  The recoil spring has less than 300 rounds on it, so while I have had a worn out spring on another gun give me trouble in the past, I don't think it is the answer here.
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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 11:21:01 AM »
You mentioned different ammo, but have you tried different bullet weights?  The heavier bullets will print higher, normally, than lighter ones.  (A friend got his Dan Wesson .45 to shoot to POA just by switching to 200 gr. bullets, instead of the 230 gr.)

Otherwise, I'd guess that the barrel isn't fitted correctly, but that's just a WAG on my part.  Not sure about how to fix it, just being a tinkerer and having little experience with the BHP (although the ones I've used have convinced me that if I had to carry a 9mm, it would be a Browning).
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sqlbullet

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 12:07:03 PM »
I don't have any advice for you right now, but I may soon:



Mine will be cerakoted this weekend if I get the time, and then I will begin serious range work with it.  I picked it up from the FFL last Friday, and shot about 70 rounds through it on Saturday.  I didn't do any serious accuracy testing at all.  Minute of posterboard at 25', mainly seeing if it would run.  Which it did.

Once I have it refinished, I will put it on sandbags with a variety of ammo and see what it can do. At that point I will post my feedback.
Utah

GeorgeHill

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 01:24:46 PM »
Okay, let's trouble shoot this. 
Starting at the Layer 1 level:  Physical.   Does it do this with other people shooting, or if it's Bench Rested?
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 02:50:33 PM »
Okay, let's trouble shoot this. 
Starting at the Layer 1 level:  Physical.   Does it do this with other people shooting, or if it's Bench Rested?
By bench rested, do you mean locked in a rest?  No, I do not have a rest.  I was shooting 'wrists braced' on a table.  No sandbags, just free hand.

I was the only one who shot it.  I can try to find someone else to shoot it and see if they experience similar.  Honestly...  I would be thrilled if this is just something I am doing.  Something wrong with my form.  That means it can be fixed.
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 02:56:16 PM »
You mentioned different ammo, but have you tried different bullet weights?  The heavier bullets will print higher, normally, than lighter ones.  (A friend got his Dan Wesson .45 to shoot to POA just by switching to 200 gr. bullets, instead of the 230 gr.)

Otherwise, I'd guess that the barrel isn't fitted correctly, but that's just a WAG on my part.  Not sure about how to fix it, just being a tinkerer and having little experience with the BHP (although the ones I've used have convinced me that if I had to carry a 9mm, it would be a Browning).
I shot 115gr, 124 Nato, 135+p, and 147 subsonic.  There was no appreciable shift between loads, but I do admit that my patterns were crap. (And that is on me)

Jesse fitted the barrel, and while that was my initial thought as well, it *looks* like it locks up correctly. :shrug
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RetroGrouch

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 03:50:01 PM »
If you were new to handguns, I'd ask if you were not locking your wrists while shooting.  If you let the handgun rotate upwards freely, the barrel will be pointing higher when the bullet exits the barrel ("limp wristing" a BHP won't cause it to jam in my experience).

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sqlbullet

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 04:07:19 PM »
I would assume George means shooting, but hand, off a rest.  Bags if you have them, but a table/sturdy surface at the least.
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 04:31:26 PM »
If you were new to handguns, I'd ask if you were not locking your wrists while shooting.  If you let the handgun rotate upwards freely, the barrel will be pointing higher when the bullet exits the barrel ("limp wristing" a BHP won't cause it to jam in my experience)
While not new to shooting, it has been... a while since I shot last.  So I am willing to consider that.  I am going to try to shoot it again this afternoon. 

One thing of note, for an all-steel pistol, the recoil seems unreasonably sharp.  If the recoil spring was not near-new, I would be replacing it immediately.  I was not the one who installed it, that would be an Old gunsmith who dislikes any non-factory part or accessory - so I would naturally assume that he put a Browning spring in it.  As well, the tension required to retract the slide seems firm enough.
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 06:52:52 PM »
By bench rested, do you mean locked in a rest?  No, I do not have a rest.  I was shooting 'wrists braced' on a table.  No sandbags, just free hand.


Okay.  Step one.  Bench it.  That means Sandbags.  Specifically to isolate as many variables out of the test.  Grip, Trigger pull... Bench it.   Shoot a group at 15 feet with one type of ammo.  Another group with a different bullet weight.  Check those results.  All benched.

Step two.   Have someone else repeat step one to confirm results.

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2016, 06:57:44 PM »
Alternately,  you could send me the gun...
For examination and rehabilitation. 
 ;)
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2016, 07:20:35 PM »
Okay, well sand bags will have to wait until I can get some - as will the second person. (Hey Raptor...  Up for a range trip?)

In the mean time, I went out to try again.  I moved in to 20ish yards so slightly tighter groups, but the POI issue remains.  Here are some pictures for reference:







So there it is.  That's what I am getting.  As per my mark, 14" high seems pretty close to the center of the groups.  For reference, the POA is the three sight blades lined up just at the bottom of the big white circle.  If POI and POA lined up exactly, the bullet would split the red/white line at the lowest point of the white.

This is a cylinder from my Model 10 snub, and to illustrate further just how bad I am. ;)  The uppermost hole is exactly where I am aiming, but the snub puts them a hair lower. (And I pull them to the right)


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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2016, 07:24:50 PM »
Alternately,  you could send me the gun...
For examination and rehabilitation. 
 ;)
If you were a gunsmith, I would say 'yes' right now.  To be sure, Jesse has done everything I asked of him with the sights, but I have a feeling that this goes beyond the sights.
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Raptor

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2016, 09:32:40 PM »
Hey Raptor...  Up for a range trip?

As it happens, I'm starting a "regular" 9 to 5 job pretty soon, so depending on how busy grad school keeps me, I should be free on the weekends...

And yeah, I wouldn't send it to George. I do trust him to figuring out what's up with the POA/POI discrepency. Getting the pistol back, on the other hand...
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2016, 10:08:35 PM »
As it happens, I'm starting a "regular" 9 to 5 job pretty soon, so depending on how busy grad school keeps me, I should be free on the weekends...

And yeah, I wouldn't send it to George. I do trust him to figuring out what's up with the POA/POI discrepency. Getting the pistol back, on the other hand...
Awesome.  Please keep me in the loop.

Yes, George might get possessive of it... for a while... but his natural inclination is to send guns down the river.
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 10:43:02 PM »
I said: 
"For examination and rehabilitation."
I never said anything about sending it back.    :cool
No, I am no Smith - but I've multiple Armorer Certs.  So I do know how to swap a part or two.   ;)

If the gun is shooting that high at that close of a range... I think there may be a problem mechanically.  With the Barrel its self.
Check the cam surfaces on the locking block.  First Shirt might be on to something with it not being fit right.  Or something preventing it from being in the correct position.  Are the primer hits perfectly centered?

Can you lower your Rear Sight?
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 12:35:58 AM »

If the gun is shooting that high at that close of a range... I think there may be a problem mechanically.  With the Barrel its self.
Check the cam surfaces on the locking block.  First Shirt might be on to something with it not being fit right.  Or something preventing it from being in the correct position.  Are the primer hits perfectly centered?

Can you lower your Rear Sight?
On the barrel, what do I look for?  What should I see or not see?

The primer strikes are centered, and they are nice and deep.  The rear is an adjustable Kensight, and is bottomed out...  and this is in addition to a tall Front sight post.
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Grant

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2016, 08:40:33 AM »
  You said recoil seems sharp.....the BHP I had was a smooth shooter and very little recoil (I thought).....

  Maybe lockup is an issue somehow?

  Question: How high did it shoot BEFORE Jesse put on the new sights? 
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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2016, 09:57:14 AM »
Look for any deformation around where it makes the barrel lock and unlock.   On the frame too.
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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2016, 10:01:21 AM »
I had the same thought about the recoil.  Mine is a pussycat to shoot.  Lots closer to my Ruger Standard model 22 than to my Glock 20.

Centered primer strikes would indicate it is properly locked at ignition.  How do the lugs look in the slide?  I have seen pictures of some torn up ones recently as I was researching for my purchase.
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 10:04:13 AM »
Look for any deformation around where it makes the barrel lock and unlock.   On the frame too.
I will look.  Can you be more specific about what to look for on the frame?
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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 10:14:38 AM »
Galling.  Where metal may have been pushed.
Because what I think is happening, is that the barrel is unlocking too soon.
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 10:53:13 AM »
Galling.  Where metal may have been pushed.
Because what I think is happening, is that the barrel is unlocking too soon.
I don't think I see any, but I will put up some pictures later.
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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2016, 12:01:56 AM »
Here are two of the inside of the slide.  The lugs have some wear, but it also looks like some metal - just a little bit - is being 'pushed.'  Like a bit of 'burring' (not knowing the correct term) is forming.  It is hard to see in the pictures, though a bit can be seen in the second. 





Here is the top of the barrel.  Not bad looking.  Once again, hard to see, but the front edge of the second lug has a bit of a 'bump,' as if metal has rolled up.  Just a tiny bit, and it can hardly be seen, but it can be felt.  Is that normal?



Two shots (as clear as I could get them) of the underside of the barrel.  This area looks good.  No apparent issues.





Finally, two of the inside of the frame.  The first is natural light, the second has a flashlight shined across the top, to bring out the marks on the top of the slide rails, and the inside angled portion where the barrel rides.  Unfortunately I don't know if this is galling, or just left over mill marks.



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Kaso

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2016, 12:18:47 AM »
You said recoil seems sharp.....the BHP I had was a smooth shooter and very little recoil (I thought).....

Maybe lockup is an issue somehow?

Question: How high did it shoot BEFORE Jesse put on the new sights? 
It is surprising to me, and I really don't know why it is that way.  I figured a BHP would be soft shooting, but it is not.  9mm feels like a .40.

The sight question is hard to answer, because the barrel was replaced at the same time.  The answer is: no worse than any other 6o'clock hold.  It was a few inches high, and I didn't like that.  That was one of the primary reason I had it cut for Novaks - I wanted a better sight picture, and POA/POI regulation.  While the gun was being worked on, I picked up the EFK threaded barrel and sent it to Jesse to fit, which he did.

Unfortunately, the original barrel was lost in transit, when being shipped back to my FFL.  Jesse claims that he sent it in the same box, but wrapped in bubble wrap, (and I am inclined to trust him that he did) and my pet theory is that my FFL's daughter who works for him and does all of the unwrapping, did not see it, and threw it out with the packing material.  Curiously though, she left the other bubble wrap in the box to protect the gun.  So I don't know.  It's gone.  The unfortunate part is that I can not compare the lugs to see if one is deformed and the other is not, or to see if I might get a different POI with the original barrel.
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