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Author Topic: Troubling Times 2017  (Read 2256 times)

Chief45

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Re: Troubling Times 2017
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2017, 10:05:55 AM »
here is an interesting little tidbit.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/more-100-inauguration-day-protesters-indicted-rioting-charges-n718626

NBC News has reported that 209 people have thus far been indicted over felony rioting charges, meaning they face a fine of up to $25,000 and a maximum of 10 years in prison.

The Washington Post reported that 230 people were arrested during President Donald Trump’s inauguration on January 20, with several cases being subsequently dismissed.


KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    booksmart

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #26 on: February 10, 2017, 10:14:10 AM »
    Doesn't matter.  Maybe the cops were wrong in this instance (I am not familiar with it) maybe not.  The point is, you never call out your own in public.  You do it behind closed doors, where they do not lose face. 

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/30/AR2010063001356.html

    Kaso

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #27 on: February 10, 2017, 10:33:09 AM »
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/30/AR2010063001356.html
    Okay, so reading the article:

    -Black guy breaks into his own house (legal)
    -Neighbor doesn't realize that it was homeowner, and calls police to report a break in. (responsible)
    -Police investigate call, (duty) find homeowner, and ask him to step outside for questioning. (procedure)
    -Homeowner is pissed, (understandable) and refuses (his right, but it escalates the situation and makes him uncooperative in the LEO's eyes)
    -Apparently the cop steps inside instead, and questioning leads to ID being produced. (a requirement in this situation)

    The contact should have ended there, and the cops have better things to do, so they left the house.

    -Homeowner 'became angry and followed officer outside' (Hostile Behavior, this makes him a potential threat)
    -Unknown interaction
    -Officer arrests homeowner for disorderly conduct, which indicates there was at least some disorderly behavior
    -Homeowner immediately plays the race card, despite himself being the 'aggressor.'
    -DC charge tossed out, indicating that the officer was just being a dick, probably because the homeowner was being a dick, and neither could let it go.

    My analysis?  The homeowner should have known when to shut up, and the officer probably could have talked him down instead of arresting him.  Officer should have gotten a few days of no shifts, and the homeowner should have been billed for the cost of the police visit. (Because the cops were trying to protect his house, and he was an ungrateful dick about it.)

    To quote from the article:
    Quote
    "To say that both gentleman could have handled it differently ignores the issues of power and control and authority," Ogletree said of the report. "Gates could not control the situation. The officer did."
    Yeah... No.  The officer at one point did leave the house.  That indicates 'contact ended.'  The homeowner followed him back outside 'angrily.'  He wasn't finished b____ing about it.  You can't pin this one just on the officer.  He tried to leave.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Here's to a great four years!

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #28 on: February 10, 2017, 11:01:48 AM »
    I wasn't there.

    It is interesting to me the different reactions people have to reading the article.

    I am right with Kaso up to the homeowner following the officer outside.  And I get that the statements Kaso used follow most department policies.

    But unless Gates touched the officer, he is within his rights to be as belligerent as he wants on his own property.  And, the officer is paid and trained to de-escalate these situations.  A duty in which he failed.  Gates had no such obligation.

    Should the homeowner have shut up?  It would have been prudent.  I believe strongly in being generous in assumptions.  Did the officer deserve to be badgered because he executed his duties?  Probably not, but I am not sure how well I would keep my cool if that happened at my house.

    Also, the article doesn't state if there was evidence of forced entry.  I would think that might change some of my thoughts.

    That said, once it blew up, I agree that the best course of action was for these to blokes to have a beer and chill out.
    Utah

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #29 on: February 10, 2017, 11:49:18 AM »
    Two things that come immediately to mind on reading this again (I sorta half-fast followed it when it was big deal, but my memory is about as short as my .... attention span).

    First, as my grandfather used to remind me, you should never get into a pissing contest with a skunk, because he's got you outgunned, right off the bat.  You'll lose, you'll both stink, but he won't care.

    Second, I've had more than one LEO tell me that there is NEVER a good time to give up your right to remain silent.  People talk themselves into lots more trouble than they talk themselves out of.  The people who argue with cops are the same ones who, on finding a rattlesnake in the woods, immediately go looking for a stick and plague the snake to a high degree of annoyance.  This rarely works out well.

    At least, that's what I've come up with.  YMMV, JMHO, IRDDU.
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    Chief45

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #30 on: February 10, 2017, 11:55:36 AM »
    so, end result.

    This "blue ribbon" committee, takes 9 months to investigate a 6 minute encounter.   Why did it take 9 months ?  there were apparently only 3 people there, plus the driver who left before the cops showed up.   3 people.  ok.  it takes NINE MONTHS to interview 3 people and write your report ?  but, but, but.   No.  it's simple, unless you make it "not simple".

    tells me someone was not cooperating, or the interviews did not produce a narrative that someone wanted. so, not simple.

    Gate's attorney had to have time to write his book about it, and all the reviews of disorderly conduct cases in that city, and it still appears that the results did not fit someone's narrative.

    I agree, it was not handled as well as it could have been.  But I've been on those calls.  Sir, I had a report someone was breaking into this house.  Bulls**t, this is my house. Sit, can you prove that ?

    Yes, and does.  end of incident.
    No, and f**k off,  start of new incident sometimes ending in arrest for stupid in public.
    can't or proven its not.  arrest.

    oh, but it's not public, it's private.  Yep, it is.  and I've been called there. the report is there was a crime in progress and my duty requires that I investigate to determine if a crime has been committed, in order to protect the property rights of the home owner.  People lie to us.  and no, I have no idea who Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. might be.  just another dude.
    so, if it turns out this actually is your house, all well and good. 
    if it turns out you are breaking into someone else's house, cuff and stuff. 
    But I'm doing my job and guess what? 
    people hate me and hate my job and hate me doing my job, but that does not mean I'm not going to do my job just because you don't care for me or it.
    so, short version, (yeah, I know,  way past the short version) let me do my job and I'll get out of your life.  but if you get in my face and try to prevent me doing my job, I'm going to be part of your life for awhile longer.

    and yes, over the last 31 years, I have been on that call multiple times and a few times, I arrested the dude because it was not his house and he was breaking in and committing a felony therein.

    and, this would have been over and done and forgotten a long time ago, if a certain former president had not made it a national news issue about race relations.















    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #31 on: February 10, 2017, 12:07:38 PM »
    Chief45 (and every other LEO here)

    Please, don't take my comments as any indictment of you individually or of law enforcement collectively.

    I am attempting (poorly I am sure) to look at this incident calmly and philosophically.  When I question the status quo, it is because I do believe such questions can and will lead to a better tomorrow.

    And, I know that such philosophical and dispassionate examination ignores the more grim realities of your jobs.  And the jerks with whom you must interact.

    I have the utmost respect and gratitude for what you and your brothers provide.  And if I ever say something that indicates otherwise, please be generous in your assumptions of me.
    Utah

    Kaso

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #32 on: February 10, 2017, 12:09:48 PM »
    But unless Gates touched the officer, he is within his rights to be as belligerent as he wants on his own property.  And, the officer is paid and trained to de-escalate these situations.  A duty in which he failed.  Gates had no such obligation.
    I am not sure of the exact jurisdiction's laws, but a google search indicates that it can be possible to be guilty of DC statues while on one's own property, and especially if others not on your property can witness and hear your behavior.  Excessive noise, extreme profanity, obscene gestures and lewd suggestions come to mind as possible examples.  My money is on the homeowner committing at least one of these examples.

    Yes, an officer should try to talk down a hostile person, if he can do so safely.  Safely.  Who decides when the suspect is no longer just an angry guy yelling obscenities, and has become a security risk?  There has to be officer discretion.  The DA (or whoever) determined that the charge should be dropped.  Should be the end of story.  So...?


    and, this would have been over and done and forgotten a long time ago, if a certain former president had not made it a national news issue about race relations.
    Bingo. 

    This is exactly the point, and why this thread went here at all.  Fmr. President Obama had a nasty habit of inflaming, rather than reducing tensions and hostility between peoples, and indirectly leading to violence. (Ferguson and Baltimore, as a result of blacks feeling 'wronged' by police in general.  A result of Obama's failure to demand that regardless of the circumstances, LEOs are to be respected and their actions assumed as just, until all of the facts can be determined)  The predident's job is to try to get everyone on the same page, and playing nicely.  Say whatever else you want about Obama, but on this he was an objective, dismal failure.  Give Trump some time, and I may say the same thing about him.  Maybe.  :shrug
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Here's to a great four years!

    Chief45

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #33 on: February 10, 2017, 02:03:49 PM »
    oh, hey,  I'm not at all worried about that, that was not even what I was thinking or where I was going.  just putting my .02 cents worth in and my opinion is worth exactly what ya paid for it.
       
    when a brother in blue screws up, I'll tell you he did. I have no problem making that call.  But, I will also wait until all the facts are in before I make it, as ya'll have seen several times over the past years.

    quite frankly, when the citizen complains, I deal with it in the appropriate manner.  Sometimes, I have a talk with the officer about professional demeanor and public perception.  sometimes it has resulted in a written reprimand or even one item in a chain that led to termination of employment.   Many, Many times the citizen just wants to vent, to let some steam out and that is part of my job.  I'm the s___ filter and I decide if that one needs to roll down hill or stay in my office or just tossed in the trash can once they walk out.







    Chief45 (and every other LEO here)

    Please, don't take my comments as any indictment of you individually or of law enforcement collectively.

    I am attempting (poorly I am sure) to look at this incident calmly and philosophically.  When I question the status quo, it is because I do believe such questions can and will lead to a better tomorrow.

    And, I know that such philosophical and dispassionate examination ignores the more grim realities of your jobs.  And the jerks with whom you must interact.

    I have the utmost respect and gratitude for what you and your brothers provide.  And if I ever say something that indicates otherwise, please be generous in your assumptions of me.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    booksmart

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #34 on: February 10, 2017, 11:21:37 PM »
    FWIW, I agree with Kaso to a point... that Gates shouldn't have been arrested, but also should have backed down - that's why I posted the link that was the after the fact analysis, instead of the right-after-it-happened hotness.  I imagine one of the reasons he didn't is he was jetlagged to hell and back, having just flown back from China. Tired, cranky, just wanted to get into his own house and bed, dealing with a cop was probably the furthest thing from his mind.

    So, yeah, I think both parties fluffed up (both euphemistically and figuratively).


    Ken Brock

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #35 on: February 11, 2017, 12:56:51 AM »
    There are just some situations that are going to be impossible to win, from either side. The citizen assumes the officer knows who is good and bad. The officer assumes that everyone is bad until proven otherwise because that's the world we live in. The media, and everyone else, judges the officer without ever having walked in their shoes.

    In the gates case, there is a situation that has happened many times but unfortunately the race card got thrown and then the president stuck his nose into a situation where it did not belong. Just like he should have kept himself out of the Trayvon Martin incident
    South Carolina

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #36 on: February 11, 2017, 01:06:30 AM »
    I guess I don't see how being " . . . tired, cranky, just wanted to get into his own house and bed . . . " is some sort of mitigating circumstance for Mr. Gates ( assuming its true ) but the same circumstance doesn't apply to officer Crowley.   :hmm  How many hours had he been on shift? I wonder if he was having a bad day for some reason?  How much overtime had he worked that week?  Is being overworked and underpaid for days, weeks or months at a time ( assuming its true )somehow less taxing on a person's ability to behave with an acceptable degree of civility than traveling in first class ( assuming its true ), albeit for a long flight from China?   

    If your original intent was to gain entrance to your house by breaking into it you already screwed the pooch, in a manner of speaking.  Getting caught at the scene of a possible crime by a police officer investigating a break in complicated the situation to some degree by any measure.  And if , by some chance, you get the situation sorted out and the police officer is leaving the scene without further ado you have every reason to be thankful.  Both for the officer's discretion and your success in your original endeavor.  If you don't recognize that fact and then follow the officer outside your house while continuing to run your mouth ( presumably about things not clearly in evidence ) you have no one but yourself to blame if the officer takes you into custody. 

    I have never seen the police officer involved in this incident interviewed but I have seen Mr. Gates interviewed about it.  He was unfailingly snarky and belligerent if there was even a suggestion that there was any motivation for his discomfort and embarrassment other than racism on the part of the officer.  He makes a fairly good living traveling about and lecturing on the topic of racism but like so many of his ilk he is more a practitioner of that despicable act than a crusader against it.
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Grant

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #37 on: February 11, 2017, 08:22:47 AM »
    There are just some situations that are going to be impossible to win, from either side. The citizen assumes the officer knows who is good and bad. The officer assumes that everyone is bad until proven otherwise because that's the world we live in. The media, and everyone else, judges the officer without ever having walked in their shoes.

    I'm also going to make the point that many people don't realize the class of "average" person police deal with and the heightened danger level of EVERY person they interact with.    We as "civilians" deal with all walks of people all day.     Just being a police officers immediately slants contact from those who do nothing wrong, to those who commit the actions bringing them into contact with police.

       We will never be in the position of unknowningly threatening a dangerous, armed criminal (as a police officer would in a traffic stop), of intentionally not minding our own business and breaking up two large, dangerous (but unarmed) men having a brawl,etc.

       Mundane, everyday things could be dangerous.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Ken Brock

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #38 on: February 11, 2017, 01:00:47 PM »
    I guess I don't see how being " . . . tired, cranky, just wanted to get into his own house and bed . . . " is some sort of mitigating circumstance for Mr. Gates ( assuming its true ) but the same circumstance doesn't apply to officer Crowley.   :hmm  How many hours had he been on shift? I wonder if he was having a bad day for some reason?  How much overtime had he worked that week?  Is being overworked and underpaid for days, weeks or months at a time ( assuming its true )somehow less taxing on a person's ability to behave with an acceptable degree of civility than traveling in first class ( assuming its true ), albeit for a long flight from China?   

    If your original intent was to gain entrance to your house by breaking into it you already screwed the pooch, in a manner of speaking.  Getting caught at the scene of a possible crime by a police officer investigating a break in complicated the situation to some degree by any measure.  And if , by some chance, you get the situation sorted out and the police officer is leaving the scene without further ado you have every reason to be thankful.  Both for the officer's discretion and your success in your original endeavor.  If you don't recognize that fact and then follow the officer outside your house while continuing to run your mouth ( presumably about things not clearly in evidence ) you have no one but yourself to blame if the officer takes you into custody. 

    I have never seen the police officer involved in this incident interviewed but I have seen Mr. Gates interviewed about it.  He was unfailingly snarky and belligerent if there was even a suggestion that there was any motivation for his discomfort and embarrassment other than racism on the part of the officer.  He makes a fairly good living traveling about and lecturing on the topic of racism but like so many of his ilk he is more a practitioner of that despicable act than a crusader against it.

    You just got a standing ovation good sir  :clap
    South Carolina

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Troubling Times 2017
    « Reply #39 on: February 11, 2017, 06:17:26 PM »
    I have worked three twelves over three days followed by a 24 on the fourth day when I was in corrections.

    I have also flown home from Manila coach.

    The second one was way worse.
    Utah

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