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Author Topic: Ok, this is why Obama won....  (Read 3404 times)

Feud

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2012, 01:28:07 AM »
more of an indirect comment.....I know a few others who are like the above person.   Generally smart, coherant people, who we assumed would recognize the problem.....and refused to.     While there was likely SOME, I don't believe voter fraud completely swung the election like some do, that's loser-talk-trying-to-strike-back-at-the-winner.           It's alot of people who went along because the devil you know is better, and those who simply stuck to their party line, regardless of the effect on them.

Unless your views have been  brought down from Mt. Sinai, when you find large numbers of generally smart and coherent people who agree with you on a lot of things but disagree with you on others, the reason that they disagree with you might be something more than just ease of making choice. ;)


Grant

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012, 08:11:58 AM »
  I know right? the view is AMAZING from up here  :cool
Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

Gunnguy

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2012, 10:12:05 AM »
To be fair, that's about how and why, my mother votes Straight Republican...  :eh



Kaso
I vote for the people who will do the job right.
Unfortunately some of them are on the democratic and republican tickets.
But yeah.
Think for yourself seems to be last on their agenda.
Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2012, 10:29:42 AM »
Obama won because he centered on the big picture.
Lie to the blue Uber Urbanite environs in the swing states.
Lie lie lie lie lie!
That's how Obama won.
Concentrate on the places where your constituents rely heavily on gubmint and tell them their Soc Sec and Benefits and food stamps will disappear under the heavy handed conservatives.
Lie lie lie lie lie!
That's how Obama won.
Give them the false idea that only Republicans are rich and evil while the opposite is actually true.
Tell them the rich people need to pay their fair share, when in reality we have the steepest progressive tax system evar!
Lie lie lie lie lie!
That's how Obama won.
He also won because a huge number of voters stayed home.
Yeah.
So in essence WE the People are to blame for all of this.
In fact, when politicians lie, they do so to belay the truth and frustrate the people.
Sixty to seventy years of deep, steep, solid Democrat ruled house and senate and all of the rules thereby laid down have brought us to this current state of affairs.
So we the people made our own bed and we wonder why we have fleas?

Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2012, 05:15:22 PM »

It would seem that he also won because he hit the lottery.

There were 59 precincts in Philly where Big-O got 100% of the ballots cast.  There were also a bunch in Ohio.

In parts of VA he got more than 99% of the ballots.

And in still other places, he got more votes than the total number of registered voters.

And oddly -- you know, in one of those freak coincidences -- these statistical anomalies were concentrated in swing states.

Dude hit the lottery big time.  You could call it a Chicago-style statistical event.
Idaho

alone

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2012, 06:22:21 PM »
My take is simple:

The United States Of America has lost its gonads and Spiritualism.

Tyranny had a Manchurian Candidate. [Once again...] *sigh*

I have NEVER voted for a Democrat, not even for Dog-Catcher as-  (respectfully)  as Mentors and Elders shared with me, as a very, very small boy they read to me, shared, and later on HAD me read the "Charter" for the Democratic Party. Along with sharing, being read to me, and later HAVING to read the "Charter (s)"  (if you will) of the Socialist Party, Communism and so forth and so on.

I come up with having to do more Civil Defense Drills than Fire Drills, as the Ruskies could and would invade the USA.

There IS a difference to me, anyway , in Religion and Spiritualism 

So Obama won simply because we have a nation  of folks not being raised as I was, in the era I was, and having learned from those that served our country, to preserve and protect the very Freedom our Fore-Fathers sacrificed much to break away from Tyranny and to give Freedom to all.

Basically, we are screwed.

alone



None of us will ever accomplish anything excellent or commanding except when he listens to this whisper which is heard by him alone.

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scarville

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2012, 12:00:32 AM »
What the heck do ghosts and seances and all the other charlatan claptrap have to do with Obama winning?

(OK, a lot of dead people voted but I hope you all know that was just garden variety  fraud)
CaliforniaOf course I carry a gun!  It gives me a chance against the sinners and protection from the righteous.

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 06:19:12 PM »
I think the Republicans lost because of the Religious Right.  Most fence sitters I know had the impression that the Tea Party wanted to redefine rape and limit women's rights.  Also, the gay marriage issue.  I think America's swinging in that direction to the point where if you're opposed to it, you're a backwards thinking biggot. Like it or not, but I think that'll be widespread public opinion.

I'm just saying what their point of view is and not offering mine.
Or you can just call em crazy and not try to think about why Romney really lost.
UtahIt doesn't cost me to be nice, but nothing gets you nothing and everything's got a little price.
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Kaso

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 07:25:31 PM »
)I tend to view social issues in a libertarian way.  Gay marriage is (according to me and my faith) morally wrong, but as long as the government is involved in the licensing of marriage, it is also their right to marry.  Gays should have the same rights as the rest of us. (whether we like them, or not...)

On the other hand, abortion is the taking of an unborn child's life, and as such should only be performed if another life (the mother's) is in danger.  What about rape or incest, you ask?  What about them?  For what other crime, do we punish the child for his father's actions?*

Marijuana (or any other drugs) - medical or recreational - should be legal for any adult.  If they want to destroy their bodies, that is their perogative.

Polygamy?  Between consenting adults, no problem.

Incestual relations?  While I find it distasteful, not my business.


Basically, my belief is that you can't legislate morality - you can only keep people from infringing upon the rights of others...


* I know this sounds callous, so let me explain:  I happen to personally know a lady who was conceived through a rape.  She is a genuine and Godly woman, with a loving husband, and six beautiful children.  I count her, and her children, to be among my closest friends.  It would have been a terrible shame, if her mother had aborted her on the grounds of being 'tainted.' (or whatever)



Kaso
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russell

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2012, 06:18:00 PM »
One of the reasons Obama won is because he garnered the plurality of the minorities :
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2012/11/2012-electoral-maps-by-sex-race-and_12.html

You cannot replace the previous demographic of white, married, mostly Protestants with new a demographic of people that have no allegiance to the ideals of a bunch of dead, Western, Christian, white guys and have the government not reflect the new demographic.

You can also expect that by constantly attacking the foundations of the dead, Western, Christian, white guys through public institutions and organs you will get a different public than you had.
Utah

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2012, 08:43:45 PM »


I look forward to the inevitable prosperity that follows the election of the anointed one.
Idaho

louie the lumberjack

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2012, 10:35:40 PM »
You cannot replace the previous demographic of white, married, mostly Protestants with new a demographic of people that have no allegiance to the ideals of a bunch of dead, Western, Christian, white guys and have the government not reflect the new demographic.


I only researched the House because that tends to reflect the overall electroate more so that the rest of the Federal .gov, but we're already seeing that to some extent.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/blogs/influencealley/2012/11/5-milestones-in-congressional-demographics-09

As far as the change in demographics goes, I've been hearing that for a long time and I don't buy it.  This is a pretty good analysis of AZs demographics, and is of interest to me since I'm from there and it can be a good example of a solid red state turning blue.  I dont know about you, but I've grown accustomed to reading academic fluff like this, so be warned, it's boring.
http://morrisoninstitute.asu.edu/publications-reports/2012-arizonas-emerging-latino-vote

Are the demographics changing?  Yeah.  But as the write up here says, the way this state would go red to blue requires a change in the voting habits of the targeted demographic.  In other words, Latinos would actually have to vote. Of course it also says a lot of the dems appeal to Latinos is their narrative on immigration. Change that, or at least change the narrative for it and Latinos might vote differently.  It also says 1/3 of AZ latinos just happen to be ineligible to vote since they are not citizens and expect their children to vote blue.  I think this is incorrect, since many of the values I was taught lend itself more towards conservative rather than liberal values, and I think that's very much the case for other Hispanics.  It's just that one issue and alas, I am a fourth gen American, so I don't have a close relative in that position.

In short, the divide and conquer strategy the Dems used can lead to a plurality of targeted groups.  But if those groups don't buy in, it just leads to them grasping for straws because in the end, they don't really have anything to offer.

louie the lumberjack
Arizona"We will always remember, we will always be proud, we will always be prepared, so we will always be free" -Ronald Regan

Stevie-Ray

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2012, 11:45:58 PM »
For some people, Obama was the lesser of two evils.

That doesn't wash when there's people like my brother who voted for the idiot the first time because "Bush spent us into oblivion." When I took him to task 2 years later about his president spending twice the amount in a quarter of the time, he remarked "Well, he's GOTTA do SOMETHING!"  :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm He voted for him again this time and is rather proud of it. He's a dumbass as far as I'm concerned, politically.
I was thinking maybe the prez was the antichrist, because he has so many fooled, but the antichrist is supposed to have all the right answers and this guy's too damn stupid. I was never fooled and neither were many. Far as I'm concerned America wants to become a socialist state. It's started, and I hope I don't live long enough to see it come to fruition.

russell

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2012, 02:19:46 AM »
I only researched the House because that tends to reflect the overall electroate more so that the rest of the Federal .gov, but we're already seeing that to some extent.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/blogs/influencealley/2012/11/5-milestones-in-congressional-demographics-09

As far as the change in demographics goes, I've been hearing that for a long time and I don't buy it. 

Are the demographics changing?  Yeah.  But as the write up here says, the way this state would go red to blue requires a change in the voting habits of the targeted demographic. 



Louie, I truncated your comment to highlight the areas where you lost me. So are you saying that despite the changes in the House due to demographic changes you don't believe in the demographic changes? And even though more Hispanics voted for Obama than Romney, they don't vote?

See Sailer's breakdown of the vote: http://isteve.blogspot.ch/2012/11/heres-other-exit-poll-data-that-nobody.html

According to Reuters breakdown of the vote, Hispanics accounted for ~14% of the vote, and 71.7% of them voted for Obama. Unmarried Hispanics voted 79.5% for Obama.

Oh, and did you see the voting map for non-whites? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/SwiuXwrupvI/AAAAAAAABAI/dGvGYap_1Rs/s1600/2008+electoral+map+non-whites+only.bmp

2012 had the same results.

The data is clear, the demographics are changing and the political landscape is reflecting those changes.
Utah


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louie the lumberjack

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2012, 12:11:08 PM »
Russell,
Please don't take this or my previous comment as an attack.  I'm not denying that the demographics played a role in this election.  I'm not saying the maps and numbers you cited are wrong either, only that they a reporting what they see, rather than explain why they vote the way they do.  It's the reasons why other Hispanics vote D (I didn't and I know plenty of others who didn't either) that I don't see playing as much of a role in the future.  Most are single issue voters, that issue is immigration.  Without that issue I think they are likely to look at more substantive issues and could potentially change the way they vote.  Case in point, Cuban-Americans tend to vote R.  While there could be other ideological factors in play with them, immigration is a non-issue since citizenship for Cuban ex-pats is guaranteed. 

So are you saying that despite the changes in the House due to demographic changes you don't believe in the demographic changes? And even though more Hispanics voted for Obama than Romney, they don't vote?


I was pointing out the demographic changes reflected in Congress is in both parties.  The report from the think tank at Arizona State I posted noted that Hispanics do not vote in proportion to their total population.  The reasons being that many are too young to vote, the ones that are old enough tend to fall into the 18-25 category that generally is apathetic politically, and a large portion (1/3) are not citizens.  For this particular demographic to change the political landscape, hinges on Hispanics to vote in proportion to their population, which is something they haven't done historically.

According to Reuters breakdown of the vote, Hispanics accounted for ~14% of the vote, and 71.7% of them voted for Obama. Unmarried Hispanics voted 79.5% for Obama.


According to Pew 40% of Hispanics voted for Bush in 2004.  Why such a big change over the same demographic?  I think many here would agree with the notion that Bush was pretty soft on illegal immigration.  In 2008 Obama kept talking about "comprehensive immigration reform" and it was part of the Dems 2010 platform, thus pandering to the ONE issue among Hispanics.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/reports/48.pdf
Pew also pointed out the portion of the Hispanic electorate who voted for Bush were more affluent, better educated and found his religion appealing.  That doesn't lend itself to the argument that Hispanics are all left of center.

I only focused on AZ because I'm from there and I only focused on Hispanics because I am one and I feel that I can speak intelligently about it from a cultural standpoint.  They are also the fastest growing minority and the one who's vote both parties are clamoring over.  I concede that other minorities in other states may vary.  Finally, I apologize for taking such a long time just to say, while the demographics are changing it doesn't mean the change in demographics all fall into one side of the political spectrum.  Once you nullify the one issue that is keeping them in one camp, they'll probably start voting based on their values rather than voting to keep mom and dad from being deported. 

louie the lumberjack
Arizona"We will always remember, we will always be proud, we will always be prepared, so we will always be free" -Ronald Regan

huey148

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2012, 03:02:21 PM »
Obama won because he got enough popular votes to garner 270 votes in the electoral college.


Now, as to how that happened......

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russell

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2012, 04:52:07 PM »
Russell,
Please don't take this or my previous comment as an attack.  I'm not denying that the demographics played a role in this election.  I'm not saying the maps and numbers you cited are wrong either, only that they a reporting what they see, rather than explain why they vote the way they do.  It's the reasons why other Hispanics vote D (I didn't and I know plenty of others who didn't either) that I don't see playing as much of a role in the future.  Most are single issue voters, that issue is immigration.  Without that issue I think they are likely to look at more substantive issues and could potentially change the way they vote.  Case in point, Cuban-Americans tend to vote R.  While there could be other ideological factors in play with them, immigration is a non-issue since citizenship for Cuban ex-pats is guaranteed. 

I was pointing out the demographic changes reflected in Congress is in both parties.  The report from the think tank at Arizona State I posted noted that Hispanics do not vote in proportion to their total population.  The reasons being that many are too young to vote, the ones that are old enough tend to fall into the 18-25 category that generally is apathetic politically, and a large portion (1/3) are not citizens.  For this particular demographic to change the political landscape, hinges on Hispanics to vote in proportion to their population, which is something they haven't done historically.

According to Pew 40% of Hispanics voted for Bush in 2004.  Why such a big change over the same demographic?  I think many here would agree with the notion that Bush was pretty soft on illegal immigration.  In 2008 Obama kept talking about "comprehensive immigration reform" and it was part of the Dems 2010 platform, thus pandering to the ONE issue among Hispanics.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/reports/48.pdf
Pew also pointed out the portion of the Hispanic electorate who voted for Bush were more affluent, better educated and found his religion appealing.  That doesn't lend itself to the argument that Hispanics are all left of center.

I only focused on AZ because I'm from there and I only focused on Hispanics because I am one and I feel that I can speak intelligently about it from a cultural standpoint.  They are also the fastest growing minority and the one who's vote both parties are clamoring over.  I concede that other minorities in other states may vary.  Finally, I apologize for taking such a long time just to say, while the demographics are changing it doesn't mean the change in demographics all fall into one side of the political spectrum.  Once you nullify the one issue that is keeping them in one camp, they'll probably start voting based on their values rather than voting to keep mom and dad from being deported. 

louie the lumberjack


Louie,

If you aren't engaging in ad hominem, you aren't attacking me. Addressing my argument is not attacking me. So don't worry about it.

"Once you nullify the one issue that is keeping them in one camp, they'll probably start voting based on their values rather than voting to keep mom and dad from being deported."

You've now have laid out the mentality prevalent in people not rooted in the Founding Father's philosophy, in that a block of voters are controlled by a single issue that is contrary to the US rule of law. If the Republicans would just stop being so pig headed about sticking to the rules of immigration and let people break that law with impunity, then they'll vote for Republicans. Of course this doesn't happen, at most Bush got 40% of the vote, even after the Republicans in Congress proved themselves to be supportive of lax immigration laws in the 80's.

And it doesn't matter if only a small percentage of the legal voters turn out to vote, since they are they only ones showing up to do so, they are setting the tone of the country, and that is one left of center. You may be right that most Hispanic immigrates are right of center, but since they don't vote, haven't voted and likely will not vote, it doesn't matter.

"while the demographics are changing it doesn't mean the change in demographics all fall into one side of the political spectrum."

And therein lies my point, the demographics are changing the makeup the country, and not just with the Hispanics, and that change is what I said before, the people have no allegiance to a bunch of dead, Protestants white guys and their nutty ideas of self-government.

To put it differently, what does it matter if the the Hispanics vote Republicans or Democrats if the Republicans have further debased themselves by constantly removing their support of the Founders' principles?

Utah

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2012, 05:20:29 PM »

I wonder if anyone has ever asked one of "those people" [fixed-idea voters] a question worded something like, "are you a free man, or does somebody own you?"

Alternatively, "I always had this idea that people are not property, is it different for you?  Does somebody own you?"

It's pretty likely that line of questioning will start an argument.  If not, perhaps a discussion of actual principles can take place.

Approached from the "taking a man's work without his permission is slavery" vector, it can be asked, "what is it that makes you think you own me?"

Hey, if I'm going to be enslaved, I'm at least going to ask why.
Idaho

louie the lumberjack

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2012, 06:56:07 PM »
If you aren't engaging in ad hominem, you aren't attacking me. Addressing my argument is not attacking me. So don't worry about it.
Fair enough  :)

I didn't come from a particularly conservative family, so I had to figure this ideology thing out on my own.  The value system was already inherent, it just needed to be appealed to me in the right way.  So is self reliance, personal responsibility and self governance nutty because its most ideal version was cooked up by white guys in powdered wigs?  No, those ideals are universal regardless of race, color, gender or religion.  Just need the right messenger.


To put it differently, what does it matter if the the Hispanics vote Republicans or Democrats if the Republicans have further debased themselves by constantly removing their support of the Founders' principles?

Therein lies the rub, there isn't a difference--at least not yet.  All I'm saying is that it's a winnable fight, because that value structure is present in all demographics.  The problem is the narrative.  If that can taken away through formulating a better message, then we'd be here arguing 9mm vs. .45 rather than why an unabashed leftist is still the president. 

louie the lumberjack
Arizona"We will always remember, we will always be proud, we will always be prepared, so we will always be free" -Ronald Regan

RoninJoseph338

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2012, 10:59:17 PM »
That's about my take on it except I don't see gay marriage as morally wrong.  I think if they stopped using the word marriage, there wouldn't be an argument, except from those hardcore Christian types.  I say all couples get civil unions.  You go to the local court house or whatever, sign the paper, pay the fee and get a little piece of paper that says you have a civil union and all the rights granted with that.

After that, you can have your marriage ceremony according to whichever religious faith you may follow.

It is that one small word that clouds the whole issue.


)I tend to view social issues in a libertarian way.  Gay marriage is (according to me and my faith) morally wrong, but as long as the government is involved in the licensing of marriage, it is also their right to marry.  Gays should have the same rights as the rest of us. (whether we like them, or not...)

On the other hand, abortion is the taking of an unborn child's life, and as such should only be performed if another life (the mother's) is in danger.  What about rape or incest, you ask?  What about them?  For what other crime, do we punish the child for his father's actions?*

Marijuana (or any other drugs) - medical or recreational - should be legal for any adult.  If they want to destroy their bodies, that is their perogative.

Polygamy?  Between consenting adults, no problem.

Incestual relations?  While I find it distasteful, not my business.


Basically, my belief is that you can't legislate morality - you can only keep people from infringing upon the rights of others...


* I know this sounds callous, so let me explain:  I happen to personally know a lady who was conceived through a rape.  She is a genuine and Godly woman, with a loving husband, and six beautiful children.  I count her, and her children, to be among my closest friends.  It would have been a terrible shame, if her mother had aborted her on the grounds of being 'tainted.' (or whatever)



Kaso
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Gunnguy

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2012, 11:32:16 PM »
I respect your views about the union then religious ceremony thing.
Unique view and twist on the subject, very smartly thought out.
I disagree, but that's not the point here.
There is still one thing that bugs the heck out of me, and many others, about any of that.
The gubmint is still involved.
I'm just asking a serious question here.
More gubmint involvement or less?
I'd prefer government stay out of marriage all together.
But to say have the gubmint do this or do that to make it a level playing field IS more gubmint involvement.
And it NEVER levels any field.
It only stacks it in the gubmints favor.
Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2012, 05:38:39 AM »
I respect your views about the union then religious ceremony thing.
Unique view and twist on the subject, very smartly thought out.
I disagree, but that's not the point here.
There is still one thing that bugs the heck out of me, and many others, about any of that.
The gubmint is still involved.
I'm just asking a serious question here.
More gubmint involvement or less?
I'd prefer government stay out of marriage all together.
But to say have the gubmint do this or do that to make it a level playing field IS more gubmint involvement.
And it NEVER levels any field.
It only stacks it in the gubmints favor.

the only real reason .gov needs to be involved  is to enforce the resulting obligations: i.e  insurance coverage, inheritance---the areas where a family needs to interact with the authorities.
find an enforcable alternative, and then no part of marriage would need be involved
GeorgiaFrom The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2012, 10:24:40 AM »
Obama won because the majority of republican and libertarian voters are satisfied with the socialists administering the offices of the various goverment bureaucracies (both civilian and military), and appointing judges to the Supreme Court as well as the Chairman and Board of the Federal Reserve. They are content with the socialist agenda in regards to international relations, treaties and immigration issues.
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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2012, 11:19:52 AM »
"They are content with the socialist agenda in regards to international relations, treaties and immigration issues."

In regards to functionality and result, the Obama Junta is pushing Crony Capitalism stylized to suggest Socialism, while the Romney Cabal would have pushed Crony Capitalism stylized to suggest Free Markets.
The Washington Consensus is a constant through both sides of our dicot  party seed. They're all cool considerate men who are wise and responsible enough to keep the meddling masses in the spectator section of our political arena while they give their ears entirely to the minority of the opulent.
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Re: Ok, this is why Obama won....
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2012, 12:03:21 PM »
"They are content with the socialist agenda in regards to international relations, treaties and immigration issues."

In regards to functionality and result, the Obama Junta is pushing Crony Capitalism stylized to suggest Socialism, while the Romney Cabal would have pushed Crony Capitalism stylized to suggest Free Markets.
The Washington Consensus is a constant through both sides of our dicot  party seed. They're all cool considerate men who are wise and responsible enough to keep the meddling masses in the spectator section of our political arena while they give their ears entirely to the minority of the opulent.

This.
After a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

-William Burroughs


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