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Author Topic: Events in the Ukraine  (Read 20968 times)

Gunnguy

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Re: Events in the Ukraine
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2014, 06:49:22 pm »
If the new president of the Ukraine gets weapons and supplies into the hands of his people, Russia will not fair so well with rifles behind every blade of grass.
Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #51 on: March 02, 2014, 06:59:54 pm »
    If the new president of the Ukraine gets weapons and supplies into the hands of his people, Russia will not fair so well with rifles behind every blade of grass.

    It's not as simple as that.  A good chunk of the Ukrainian people are ethnic Russians, and many of them support full integration with Russia.

    This has a good chance of turning into a full-blown civil war in Ukraine, and one that will not go well for the Ukrainian Nationalists because the other side has Russia in its corner.

    Also, this:



    And this:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

    New head of Ukraine's navy defects in Crimea



    he newly appointed head of Ukraine's navy has sworn allegiance to the Crimea region, in the presence of its unrecognised pro-Russian leader.

    Rear Admiral Denys Berezovsky was only made head of the navy on Saturday, as the government in Kiev reacted to the threat of Russian invasion.

    Ukraine's interim leaders have put him under investigation for treason.

    Meanwhile, Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen has asked Russia to withdraw its forces to its bases.

    "We call on Russia to de-escalate tensions... to withdraw its forces to its bases and to refrain from any interference elsewhere in Ukraine," he said, speaking in Brussels.

    Ukraine was a "valued partner" for Nato and should be allowed to determine its own future, he said.

    US Secretary of State John Kerry is to visit Kiev on Tuesday, US sources say. He has warned that Russia might be ejected from the G8 for its actions but his German counterpart, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, argued for Moscow's continuing membership.

    "The format of the G8 is actually the only one in which we in the West can speak directly with Russia," Mr Steinmeier told the public broadcaster ARD.

    US President Barack Obama called Russian troop deployments in Crimea, home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet, a "violation of Ukrainian sovereignty".

    'Crimean navy'

    Admiral Berezovsky appeared in Sevastopol before cameras alongside Sergiy Aksyonov, the pro-Russian politician elected by Crimea's regional parliament as local prime minister.

    Mr Aksyonov announced he had given orders to Ukrainian naval forces on the peninsula to disregard any orders from the "self-proclaimed" authorities in Kiev.

    Sunday, he said, would go down in history as the birthday of the "navy of the autonomous republic of Crimea".

    The admiral then pledged to "strictly obey the orders of the supreme commander of the autonomous republic of Crimea" and "defend the lives and freedom" of Crimea's people.

    Admiral Berezovsky was later sacked by interim Ukrainian Defence Minister Ihor Tenyukh and a treason case launched against him.

    Ukraine's Ukrainska Pravda newspaper reports that the admiral was speaking before the "numerous cameras of predominantly Russian TV channels".

    Earlier, Ukrainian naval officers found their headquarters in Sevastopol occupied by Russian troops and were unable to go to work.

    Separately, Ukraine withdrew coast guard vessels from two ports in Crimea and moved them to other bases in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov on Sunday.

    Bases surrounded

    Two explosions were heard in Simferopol, Crimea's capital, on Sunday evening, but the cause was not clear.

    There are also unconfirmed reports, on social media, that Russian forces are trying to take over another Ukrainian military base, this time at Sevastopol's military airport, Belbek.

    Several Ukrainian army bases were surrounded by Russian troops earlier on Sunday but there were no reports of clashes despite the refusal of Ukrainian soldiers to open their gates.

    Ukraine has ordered a full military mobilisation in response to Russia's build-up of its forces on the Crimean peninsula. Interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk warned the country was "on the brink of disaster".

    The UK has joined the US, France and Canada in suspending preparations for a summit of the G8 in Russia in June.



    Mr Kerry told US media Russian President Vladimir Putin might "find himself with asset freezes".

    The Russian leader defended his decision in a phone call with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday, saying "ultranationalist forces" in Ukraine posed an "unrelenting threat of violence" to "Russian citizens and the whole Russian-speaking population".

    Berlin says Mr Putin told Mrs Merkel he had agreed to setting up a contact group for dialogue with the new Ukrainian government.

    Thousands of people took part in a march in Moscow in support of military action while police broke up small anti-war protests in the city.

    Veteran Russian rock musician Yury Shevchuk has condemned "warmongering radicals" on both sides.

    Moscow has not recognised the government that took power in Kiev last month after overthrowing the elected pro-Russian President, Viktor Yanukovych.

    Mr Yanukovych's decision in November to abandon closer ties with the EU in favour of Russia sparked massive protests in Kiev, which ended in a bloodbath, as dozens of protesters were shot dead in clashes with police.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #52 on: March 02, 2014, 07:08:51 pm »
    Looks like a mess where ever they step.
    Better buy up any 7.62X54r and x39 as soon as possible.
    That and any available Mosins or AK's and parts thereof.

    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

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    Russia and China in Agreement
    « Reply #53 on: March 03, 2014, 10:11:41 am »
    http://news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine

    Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine
    Moscow claims the superpowers' views "coincide" as Ukraine's PM says his country "will never give up Crimea to anyone".

    Russia has said China is largely "in agreement" over Ukraine, after other world powers condemned Moscow for sending troops into the country.

    Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.

    The convoy blockading the site, near the Crimean capital Simferopol, includes at least 17 military vehicles.



    Russian troops are also reported to have taken control of a ferry terminal in the city of Kerch on the eastern tip of Crimea, which has a majority Russian-speaking population.

    Ukraine's defence ministry said two Russian fighter jets violated the country's air space in the Black Sea on Sunday night and that it had scrambled an interceptor aircraft to prevent the "provocative actions".

    And reports claimed pro-Russian protesters had occupied a floor of the regional government building in Donetsk. The 11-storey building has been flying the Russian flag for the last three days.

    Ukrainian prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk has insisted his country "will never give up Crimea to anyone" and urged Russian forces to withdraw.



    But Mr Yatseniuk said: "I was and am a supporter of a diplomatic solution to the crisis, as a conflict would destroy the foundations for stability in the whole region."

    The crisis has had a huge knock-on effect on global stock markets, with Moscow's stock exchange plunging as much as 10% on Monday morning.

    Russia's central bank raised its rate to 7% from 5.5% as the ruble hit an historic low against the dollar and the euro.

    Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov discussed Ukraine by telephone with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, on Monday, and claimed they had "broadly coinciding points of view" on the situation there, according to a ministry statement.

    Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation".

    He added: "We call for a responsible approach, to put aside geopolitical calculations, and above all to put the interests of the Ukrainian people first."

    Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang said: "China has always upheld the principles of diplomacy and the fundamental norms of international relations.

    "At the same time we also take into consideration the history and the current complexities of the Ukrainian issue."

    As the tense stand-off continues, the other seven nations of the G8 urged Moscow to hold talks with Kiev.

    "We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation's clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine," they said in a statement.

    "We have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G8 Summit in Sochi in June."

    British Foreign Secretary William Hague, who is in Kiev for talks on the crisis, said Russia has taken operational control of Crimea.

    He described Russia's intervention in Ukraine as the biggest crisis in Europe in the 21st century.

    At a news conference with Mr Yatseniuk, Mr Hague said: "If this situation cannot resolve itself, if Russia cannot be persuaded to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, there will have to be other consequences and other costs."

    Mr Hague added: "The UK is not discussion military action, our concentration is on diplomatic and economic pressure."

    Prime Minister David Cameron will later chair a meeting of the National Security Council on the "British and international response to the grave situation in Ukraine".

    European foreign ministers are holding an emergency meeting on Ukraine in Brussels to table a joint response to the military incursion.

    Mr Yatseniuk heads a pro-Western government that took power in the former Soviet republic when its Moscow-backed president, Viktor Yanukovych, was ousted last week.

    US Secretary of State John Kerry will visit Kiev on Tuesday to show "strong support for Ukrainian sovereignty".

    Meanwhile, Ukraine launched a treason case against its new navy chief after he switched allegiance to the pro-Russian Crimea region.

    Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky was appointed head of Ukraine's navy on Saturday.

    But a day later he appeared before cameras, alongside the pro-Russian prime minister of Crimea's regional parliament, saying he had ordered Ukrainian naval forces there to disregard orders from "self-proclaimed" authorities in Kiev.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday won parliament's authorisation to use force in Ukraine.

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #54 on: March 03, 2014, 06:34:32 pm »
    http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/crazy-about-the-crimea/

    Quote
    The Wall Street Journal this morning in a lead editorial says flatly that the Russian de facto annexation of the Crimea cannot be allowed to stand. That is because they are crazy, and think that there is something the United States can do to prevent it. There is not, of course. We have no ships in the Black Sea, and we certainly would not send SAC even if there were a SAC to send. We have no bargaining points – not that it is much of our business. The Crimea has been conquered and recolonized throughout historical times, and cannot be said to be the ethnic homeland for anyone. It has been held by Greeks, Tatars, Khazars, Venetians, Genoese, Turks, Kievan Russ’, Golden Horde, Mongols, Tamarlane, Russians and most anyone else you can think of, and has been ethnically cleansed several times including during the Twentieth Century. We did northing about Stalin’s ethnic cleansing of the Crimea after WW II. Truman threatened unconditional nuclear war if Stalin did not remove his troops from Iran, but saving the Crimea was beyond his abilities.

    After the collapse of the USSR, the Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for a guarantee of its territorial integrity from the US, NATO, and Russia. The guarantee is not enforceable and is unlikely to be useful except as a blaming point to use against President Putin. One wonders what might have happened had they kept a few, a force d’ frappe? The lesson will not be ignored by North Korea, which continues to enslave its people and conduct daily atrocities dwarfing anything Russians, Ukrainians, or Tatars would even contemplate; meanwhile South Korea views with alarm the US swing toward Japan as the key to US Far East policy. Much of Korea has the same regard for its Japanese former colonial masters as the Irish Republican Army has for England.

    And the West is furiously backpedalling on the economic sanctions against Iran even as the lesson of the value of having a few nuclear weapons becomes more obvious.

    It promises to be an interesting year for John Kerry.

    The White House spokesman has said that President Obama called President Putin, and “the president was very strong”.  One assumes he meant President Obama, but what President Obama was very strong about was not made clear.  We await clarification. Meanwhile I have not heard that the Minuteman wings have been put on full alert. And China is watching.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #55 on: March 03, 2014, 06:58:30 pm »
    Yeah, it's all over now.  Russia wins the Ukraine.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #56 on: March 03, 2014, 07:03:35 pm »
    We are led by a narcissistic social activist who has zero experience leading, managing or even making decisions. Our military has been re-staffed with legions of yes men who are perfectly willing to trade their Oaths for the promises of promotion and power. Our Congress is equally inept and dededicated to personal power preservation rather than service to the ideals and concepts of what guided our country for decades. Our Judges no longer rule from the Bar but from self-identified thrones.

    "Of the people" is now determined by "what's in it for me?" and it has become all to obvious that we deserve whatever comes our way.

    But, the Arab Spring seems to be over and now it's looking like it may be replaced by the something just as deadly but also just as far away.

    Obama and Kerry are ready to replicate their previous successes in Libya and Syria and even in Iran.
    MissouriBud
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #57 on: March 03, 2014, 08:15:12 pm »
    Yeah, it's all over now.  Russia wins the Ukraine.
    And China just got Taiwan.



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    counterpoint
    « Reply #58 on: March 03, 2014, 08:59:48 pm »
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/372398/putin-not-super-genius-jonah-goldberg

    Quote
    Putin Is Not a Super-Genius

    By Jonah Goldberg

    March 3, 2014 12:45 PM

    I take a backseat to no man when it comes to disdain for Obama’s foreign policy. But just because Obama has largely been incompetent doesn’t automatically mean that his opponents are geniuses. I agree with the consensus that Putin has made a fool of Obama more than once. But you don’t have to be a genius to create problems for the U.S. Sometimes you just have to be a liar and an irrationally stubborn bully. Saddam Hussein wasn’t brilliant but he gave us headaches for years. And then he lost his country and, not too long after, his life. Hamid Karzai is just a survivor, not a statesman, and look at the headaches he’s giving the U.S.

    Putin may indeed be very cunning, I certainly assume he is. But it’s hardly as if he’s played all of this beautifully. I picked him as the “Loser of the Week” last Friday on Special Report for a reason. Whatever prestige he gained or wanted from the Olympics has been completely erased. You can say he doesn’t care. But that kind of runs against the fact that he was obsessed with the Olympics for years and spent $50 billion on them for a reason.

    The situation in Ukraine is a huge loser for him. The best he gets is complete control over something he had de facto control over two weeks ago: Crimea. In the process, he’s pissed off much of the entire world. Invited sanctions, including ones aimed at his and his goons foreign bank accounts, and united Ukrainians around their new government. Oh, and he’s given rhetorical support for separatist movements too. If he keeps Crimea, there will be a lot of chatter about how Putin “won.” But the best you can say is he made the best at of a lousy situation he created.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #59 on: March 03, 2014, 09:01:43 pm »
    LINK

    President Obama Calls Group Intervention To Stem Vladimir Putin’s Crimea Addiction

    WASHINGTON — As Russian President Vladamir Putin sends troops to seize military bases and civil institutions in the Crimea area of Ukraine, U.S. President Barack Obama announced what the administration calls a “creative strategy” to ease tensions in the region.

    Obama, speaking from the White House briefing room, said intervention was the key. ”I’m not talking about military intervention,” he said. “No, I’m talking about getting all of Putin’s friends together in a room with an intervention specialist and telling him the truth about how his actions affect others.”

    The president added that he had spoken to other world leaders and made it clear that it required “everyone to make a serious effort to be there and show their support. This won’t be easy, but together I think we can turn the situation around completely.”

    The Defense Department began to draw up plans early this weekend, which sources involved in the process say include President Obama, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, North Korean Supreme Leader Kim Jung-un, Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, and Intervention Specialist Natasha Cartwright from the Detroit Center for Violent Addition.

    “An intervention is a very emotional and potentially volatile situation,” said Cartwright during an interview Sunday morning on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “It has the potential to cause anger, resentment or a sense of betrayal.”

    U.S. officials say that is precisely what they plan to avoid.

    World leaders will first decide what each of their actions will be if Putin refuses to accept treatment. Then each world leader will write down exactly what he wants to say to Putin.

    “I’ll be honest,” Obama said. “I’m gonna tell Putin how much it hurt me what he did in Syria, and he’s gonna have to listen to me this time.”

    Neil Horton, a political analyst with Rand Corporation, says President Obama’s effort likely won’t be enough. “Other world leaders will need to step up and really demonstrate resolve in sharing their feelings,” he said. That will include Maduro opening up about Putin not attending former President Hugo Chavez’s funeral, Kim Jung-un talking about his separation anxiety, and al-Assad communicating his anger over not being invited to the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi.”

    “They have to show Putin how much he hurts others, but also be careful not to alienate him,” he added.

    “Right now the situation is very fluid,” Obama said. “We will continue to communicate with the Russian government and keep this meeting on the down low for now, and when the time is right we will come together and bring an end to this self-destructive lifestyle Putin’s been living.”
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #60 on: March 03, 2014, 09:22:35 pm »
     :rotfl Sounds like the plot line for an episode on some MTV reality show.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #61 on: March 03, 2014, 09:57:05 pm »
    Its from the duffleblog, the military-themed version of The Onion. Good stuff tho' and not far off the truth, more's the pity
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #62 on: March 03, 2014, 10:37:17 pm »
      I bought another half-case of X39.  I'm strapped for cash but I did anyway, along with the full crate of 54R surplus I got a day ago.

       I betya almost anything that our big boob salvages a victory by denying US gun-owners access to Russia the same way the previous boob cut off China.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    GeorgiaFrom The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #64 on: March 04, 2014, 06:09:15 pm »
    And China gets Taiwan... That's indeed true.  With a Sino-Russian Alliance - we can go ahead and call it the Axis - There is little we can do to put a stop to it. 
    Because we've been gutting our military, cutting out the leadership, and taking assets offline without replacements. 

    Uh - were's the replacement for the KC-135?   Iceberg?   There's the tip.  We're not geared up for a Cold War to go Hot - Haven't been since Reagan.  And now the stakes are higher.   What are we going to do, swarm them with remotely piloted Predator Drones?   
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #65 on: March 05, 2014, 11:34:57 am »
    Transcript of Putin's most recent interview:
    http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6763

    QUESTION: But there are Ukrainian troops, there is the Ukrainian army.
    VLADIMIR PUTIN: Listen carefully. I want you to understand me clearly: if we make that decision, it will only be to protect Ukrainian citizens. And let’s see those troops try to shoot their own people, with us behind them – not in the front, but behind. Let them just try to shoot at women and children! I would like to see those who would give that order in Ukraine.
    GeorgiaFrom The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #66 on: March 05, 2014, 12:19:19 pm »



    Colonel Yuli Mamchor (guy in blue hat), commander of the Ukrainian military garrison at the Belbek airbase, led 100 unarmed Ukrainian soldiers to retake the airfield. They carried the Ukrainian and WW2 Soviet Red Army flags. This was the morning after Moscow announced a deadline to surrender.

    Russian soldiers were given orders to use lethal force in order to prevent the Ukrainians from retaking the base. Several Russian soldiers fired warning shots and advised that they would use lethal force if the Ukrainians did not retreat.

    The soldier in the middle (with slung rifle) restrained his colleagues (aiming rifles at the Ukrainians). Said soldiers allowed COL Mamchor to talk to their CO, and after 7 hours allowed 12 Ukrainian airmen to attend their posts. Some anonymous Russian soldier refused orders to gun down unarmed Ukrainians in their own land. He might get a medal, he might get shot or he may be overlooked.
    To know the darkness is to love the light,
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #67 on: March 05, 2014, 12:43:22 pm »

    More information. The two gentlemen making threatening gestures are allegedly militia. The soldier in the center is unmarked, but very obvious to be Russian. They were also under sniper coverage.



    Partial transcript:

    Russian soldier: Hold back.

    Russian soldier: I want your officer here. We’ll be shooting your legs.

    Ukrainian soldier: You will pay for this. You’ll be responsible.

    Ukrainian soldier: You’re being filmed live.

    Ukrainian soldier: America stands with us.

    Ukrainian Colonel Yuli Mamchor: Calm down!

    Ukrainian soldier: Are you going to shoot us?

    Ukrainian soldier: Look, this is our flag, we’re ready to fight.

    Russian soldier: Commander, calm down your crowd.

    Ukrainian soldier: This is not a crowd. This is a military unit.

    Russian soldier: We’re waiting for our commander.

    Ukrainian Colonel Yuli Mamchor: Yes, bring him here, please.

    Russian soldier: We will have negotiations. No questions.

    Ukrainian Colonel Yuli Mamchor: Yes, negotiations.

    Russian soldier: Stop the crowd and make them behave. Hold back.

    Russian soldier: We are all military here.

    Ukrainian soldier: And we are also citizens of our country.

    Ukrainian Colonel Yuli Mamchor: But because of one certain politician we

    are now at loggerheads. This is wrong.

    Russian soldier: Are you deliberately provoking us?

    Ukrainian soldier: How are we provoking you, we have no weapons?

    Ukrainian soldier: We’ve come here to go back to work

    Russian soldier: Let me repeat if you do not understand, it is not is

    behind this. It is your leadership in Kiev who is behind this.

    Ukrainian soldier: And you can’t think for yourselves? You’ve got families too.

    Ukrainian Colonel Yuli Mamchor: Be quiet!

    Ukrainian soldier: We haven’t gone to your Russian towns like Anapa and

    Sochi with weapons, like you have here.

    Ukrainian soldier: Guys, what are you doing? We are completely unarmed.

    To know the darkness is to love the light,
    to welcome dawn and fear the coming night.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #68 on: March 05, 2014, 08:57:56 pm »
    Here's an interesting article from an American on the ground in the Ukraine.
    http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/#.UxbuZvIdkAA.facebook


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    Indiana"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
    If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

    A battalion commander of the 23rd Regiment 2nd Infantry Division reported during Operation Cobra, the long awaited breakout from St. Lo (July 1944):

    "I have no water, I have no chow, I have no batteries for my radio, I have no communication. My men are dead dog tired. I repeat, my men are dead dog tired. I have been given an order to attack. I am about to comply with this order. End of message."

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #69 on: March 05, 2014, 10:51:47 pm »
    Aaaaand, this about sums it up.
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #70 on: March 05, 2014, 11:40:23 pm »
    Is it just me or do both the president and the secretary of state remind you of two rabbits who think that safety lies in the dark space between the two onrushing headlights ?    :facepalm
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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #71 on: March 06, 2014, 11:03:16 am »
    Is it just me or do both the president and the secretary of state remind you of two rabbits who think that safety lies in the dark space between the two onrushing headlights ?    :facepalm

    my personal nominee for "thread winner" right there
    MissouriBud
    Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! Patrick Henry

    goatroper

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #72 on: March 06, 2014, 12:04:13 pm »
    my personal nominee for "thread winner" right there

    Ditto.  That's one that will bear repeating.
    VirginiaGoatroper

    Coronach

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #73 on: March 06, 2014, 12:39:07 pm »
    Ironically, it does. If you're small enough, lucky enough, and you flatten yourself out enough.

    I wouldn't call any of that a wise course of action, though.
    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    aikorob

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    Re: Events in the Ukraine
    « Reply #74 on: March 09, 2014, 08:01:37 pm »



    Russian Orthodox monks declare Putin anathema
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